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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

metalhearf.fr

291–300 of 656 posts

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#291
post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

>The authorities really think every predator will just give up and stop abusing just because of that? What a joke. Yes, the framing is disingenuous, but so is yours. You're seriously suggesting that any policy that doesn't 100% eliminate a problem is a joke?

> You're seriously suggesting that any policy that doesn't 100% eliminate a problem is a joke?

I think a more charitable reading is that any policy that doesn't 100% _target_ a problem is a joke. This policy doesn't have a plausible way that it will protect children from being victimized, so I think it's reasonable to remove the "think of the children" cloak it's wearing and assess it on the merits of whether encryption is beneficial for the social discourse of a society.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#292
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From TFA > the proposed legislation includes exemptions for government accounts used for “national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes”. Convenient.

I can buy the military exemption, and maybe some very top level government workers that are effectively military (example: POTUS). But the EU parliament has no reason to be excluded. It is definitely a terrible law if it is so bad that they won't pass it unless they are excluded.

Interestingly Parliament is against Chat Control: https://edri.org/our-work/chat-control-what-is-actually-goin...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#293
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with csam and arguing that point is on purpose, to distract people and the politicians can say “xp84 supports child pornography!” It has everything to do with censorship and complete control over people’s ability to communicate. Politicians hate free speech and they want to control their citizens completely including their thoughts. This is true evil.

[flagged]

Actually I deny that. What proof is there that peddlers of child pornography are using chat to distribute CSAM? What proof is there that they won’t simply move to another undocumented form of distribution once this is implemented, leaving the criminals unmonitored but every law-abiding citizen monitored?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#294
Most arguments I see against ChatControl sound like bullshit to me. How do we expect to convince anyone to go against ChatControl with those?

I feel unease when it comes to ChatControl; I don't want my devices to run proprietary, opaque algorithms on all my data. And it feels like it fundamentally has to be opaque: nobody can't publish an open source list of illegal material together with their hash (precisely because it is illegal). That is why I don't want ChatControl: I would want someone to formally prove that it cannot be abused, just because of what it means. The classic example being: what happens if someone in power decides to use this system to track their opponents?

But most comments and most articles talk about anything but that, with honestly weird, unsupported claims:

> It's the end of encryption

How so? What appears on my screen is not encrypted and will never be encrypted, because I need to read it. We all decrypt our messages to read them, and we all write them unencrypted before we send them.

> It won't fight CSAM

Who are you kidding? Of course it will. It will not solve the problem entirely, but it will be pretty damn efficient at detecting CSAM when CSAM is present in the data being scanned.

> With ChatControl, every message gets automatically checked, assuming everyone is guilty until proven innocent and effectively reversing the presumption of innocence.

When you board a plane, you're searched. When you enter a concert hall, you're search. Nobody would say "you should let me board the plane with whatever I put in my bag, because I'm presumed innocent".

> While your messages still get encrypted during transmission, the system defeats the purpose of end-to-end encryption by examining your content before it gets encrypted.

Before it gets encrypted, it is not encrypted. So the system is not breaking the encryption. If (and that's a big if) this system was open source, such that anyone could check what code it is running and prove that the system is not being abused, then it would be perfectly fine. The problem is that we cannot know what the system does. But that's a different point (and one of the only valid arguments against ChatControl).

> Proton point out this approach might be worse than encryption backdoors. Backdoors give authorities access to communications you share with others. This system examines everything on your device, whether you share it or not.

How is it worse? Backdoors give access to communications, this system (on the paper) does not. This system is better, unless we admit that we can't easily audit what the system is doing exactly. Which again is the one valid argument against ChatControl.

> The regulation also pushes for mandatory age verification systems. No viable, privacy-respecting age verification technology currently exists. These systems would eliminate online anonymity, requiring users to prove their identity to access digital services.

This is plain wrong. There are ways to do age verification anonymously, period.

> Police resources would be overwhelmed investigating innocent families sharing vacation photos while real crimes go uninvestigated.

How to say you don't know how the police works without saying you don't know how the police works? Anyway, that's the problem of the police.

> Google’s algorithms flagged this legitimate medical consultation as potential abuse, permanently closed his account and refused all appeals.

The problem is the closing and refusing of appeals.

> The letter emphasizes that client-side scanning cannot distinguish between legal and illegal content without fundamentally breaking encryption and creating vulnerabilities that malicious actors can exploit.

Then explain how? How is it fundamentally breaking encryption and creating vulnerabilities? Stop using bad arguments. If you have actual reasons to go against ChatControl, talk about those. You won't win with the bullshit, invalid arguments.

> ChatControl catches only amateur criminals who directly attach problematic content to messages.

Yep, that's an argument in favour of ChatControl: it does catch some criminals. How many criminals are professionals? Do you want to make it legal to be an amateur criminal?

Don't get me wrong: I am against ChatControl. Because of one argument I believe to be valid: we fundamentally cannot know what the algorithm doing the scanning is doing, so those who control it could abuse it. Of all the discussions I have seen against ChatControl, I haven't seen another valid argument. But this one is enough.

Stop saying bullshit, start using the valid arguments. And maybe politicians will hear them.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The authorities really think every predator will just give up and stop abusing just because of that? What a joke. Yes, the framing is disingenuous, but so is yours. You're seriously suggesting that any policy that doesn't 100% eliminate a problem is a joke?

Well, what is "the problem"? Is it children being abused, or is it the distribution of CSAM? And if you say both - how would you rate the relative severity of the two problems? Specifically, if you had to pick between preventing the rape of a child, and preventing N acts of CSAM distribution, how big would N have to be to make it worth choosing the latter?

> Well, what is "the problem"? Is it children being abused, or is it the distribution of CSAM?

It seems obvious that it is entirely the former and not at all the latter. In other words, N is positive infinity. Am I missing something?

I only care about kids being hurt. And I think this view is close to consensus.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#296
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with csam and arguing that point is on purpose, to distract people and the politicians can say “xp84 supports child pornography!” It has everything to do with censorship and complete control over people’s ability to communicate. Politicians hate free speech and they want to control their citizens completely including their thoughts. This is true evil.

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#297

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

Dear citizens of the US:

Please stop funding, allying with and protecting the manufacturers of surveillance tools. Stop exporting Palantir products and importing privacy-destroying devices from businesses like Greyshift and Cellebrite. Insist that the US government stop shielding hackers-for-hire like NSO Group who indiscriminately lease their products for discriminatory and illegal purposes. Stop defending "OEM" control that we have all known is a stand-in for federal steering since the Snowden leaks. Stop marketing E2EE while backdooring server and client hardware for "emergency" purposes.

Do that, and you'll never be accused of hypocrisy again. Signed, a US citizen.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#298
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Actually I deny that. What proof is there that peddlers of child pornography are using chat to distribute CSAM? What proof is there that they won’t simply move to another undocumented form of distribution once this is implemented, leaving the criminals unmonitored but every law-abiding citizen monitored?

> What proof is there that peddlers of child pornography are using chat to distribute CSAM?

Are you kidding me? How do you think predators get in contact with children? Over social media that children use, obviously.

And of course many criminals use chat. Most have no clue about encryption, like the vast majority of humans.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#299

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

> Start a revolution? You have no weapons.

LOL. People nowadays don't start revolutions not because of weapons or lack thereof. It's because they're thoroughly entertained and fed; even the entire political circus is a sort of morbid reality show: people tune in to the news to shake their head in disgust at today's latest antics, and will do so tomorrow, because it's all panem et circenses for grown-ups.

The Internet has become the greatest instrument of mass control ever created in the history of the world. It's done. As long people have their Doordash and Netflix, and are too busy working or scrolling instead of thinking deep thoughts, and reading anarchist philosophy, the kings has nothing to fear.

Also, no need to single out the EU. The entire government-as-reality-TV is well and truly an American creation, and your three-letter agencies don't even have to pass any laws to collect information about its citizens. We're all in the same shit, my brother/sister.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#300
post #135

Where is Apple in all of this? They're such proponents of privacy that they've actively started encrypting as much as possible for decades but now that the EU is about to break all that they're silent. They raised such a fuss when the FBI asked to decrypt that single iPhone years ago, but now that millions are on the line... nothing?

When Apple attempted to anticipate these laws and propose a system which tried to navigate a compromise, the “pro-privacy” faction was so politically dumb they spread FUD about it and actively made sure no reasonable compromise could ever be reached. Now the public with reap what these advocates have sowed, good and hard. With regards to the FBI incident, Apple said at the beginning of their statement, “This moment c…

ChatControl is exactly what Apple did. It's client-side, so no one is able to see your messages. The police sees if content hashes match known CSAM.
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