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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#291

Post by lukeschlather »

terribleperson wrote: post #114
izacus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is - a lot if power saving is achieved by hybrid sleep (computer hibernating after a timeout). Setting that up is pure hell on Linux, with poor documentation and security people actively fighting against making this easy. On Windows/macOS it just works, on Linux you'll probably break secure boot with it.

Maybe it just works on MacOS, but it's prone to all kinds of breakage on Windows.

I've never had an issue on Windows. This is why I gave up on using Linux laptops for any purpose.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#292

Post by mbac32768 »

deepsun wrote: post #134
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

No, Linux is not the issue -- my System76 Lemur holds 14+ hours. Haven't used X1 Carbon for a while, but it also held way longer than Framework.

Um, more details? My Lemur has never lasted anywhere near this long, though it's a few years old.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#293

Post by lukeschlather »

worble wrote: post #155
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

My main use for laptops is as a notepad. If it takes a minute to start when I need it it's vastly inferior to a sheet of paper. If it can't remember what page I was on that's doubly so. Windows works more or less like a sheet of paper (though automatic reboots to apply security updates are a point in favor of paper that has no such issues.)

And I often use my laptop for things where seconds matter. I've got things on the stove that could burn, I may not have 5 seconds to spare locating the next step in the recipe.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#294

Post by [deleted] »

alansammarone wrote: post #282
isametry wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "Apple's dominance", are you referring to a potential dominance? Because in terms of actual dominance, Apple is far from that in laptops. Lenovo, HP and Dell each sell more laptops than Apple, and those three alone make up 60% of the market. https://www.industryresearch.biz/market-reports/mobile-compu...

Completely disproportionate, off the charts dominance (relative to everything else I have tried in (mostly hardware, but also software) quality, attention to detail and UI/UX would be my opinion. Power consumption would be part of that. Granted, I haven't tried most of the newer niche Linux-focused laptops, which I intend to do.

[deleted]

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#295

Post by dustbunny »

Is this person using deep sleep? I always make sure I'm on deep sleep.

I know it's gross:

Put this in a file:

GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="mem_sleep_default=deep

In

/etc/default/grub.d/90_memsleepdefault.cfg

Then run

update-grub

And reboot.

Run this to check if deep sleep is enabled:

cat /sys/power/mem_sleep

If it says [deep] your good

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#296

Post by dustbunny »

didacusc wrote: post #22
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

My parents can never understand windows because they keep changing the ux design and my parents can't tell the difference between Microsofts AI ad stuff and the real os. My parents will literally type "email" into the Google search bar and hope to find their email address.

Windows has failed them.

Linux Mint/Cinnamon is closer to windows 95 than windows 11 is. It's cleaner, simpler, better.

Mac osx is annoying compared to cinnamon. I hate the empty space around the dock. I hate how Mac windows don't always consume the same amount of space for some reason so I can see the different rounded corners on different "maximized" windows. I hate Mac osx's full screen mode forcing each fullscreen app onto a different desktop. I prefer cinnamons default window tiling/desktop switching/fullscreening keyboard shortcuts and animations.

Finder's default mode of unaligned randomly placed folder icons is so wild. .DS_Store is so annoying. The lack of a system tray meaning you have to use the dock in order to see if you have a DM in slack. Spotlight opening the "spotlight" app when I type the "spot" of Spotify. Idk I just truly prefer cinnamon.

There's things about Mac osx that are great. The central nature of /Applications and of ~/Library is great. Lots of things are great.

Mac hardware is by far best in class but Mac osx is honestly pretty ugly compared to Cinnamon imo. I'm not biased. I paid through the nose for my MacBook. But I like the esthetics of Cinnamon on my desktop much more than osx.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#297

Post by heavyset_go »

j45 wrote: post #285
heavyset_go wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on an AMD machine that System76 wrote the firmware for, and they specifically wrote in S3 sleep functionality despite the base firmware missing it.

Hopefully it can find it's way to Framework.

The firmware vendor contracted System76 to develop the feature specifically for Linux compatibility.

I'm unaware of how much access Framework has to the underlying firmware blobs. If they don't have source/license/keys/etc for the right parts, they might be at the mercy of their own vendors for S3 support.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#298

Post by lukeschlather »

shirro wrote: post #252

I don't remember having "range anxiety" under S3 suspend on my old intel laptops. It just worked and they woke up reasonably reliably and quickly under linux if you had a regular thin and light with integrated graphics. I had an Apple intel laptop that might have been marginally faster returning to life but it basically just worked on either. The move to modern standby has been a mess. It seems to have improved a lot…

I think I had that happen with a Windows laptop once like 6 years ago, I have used a couple MSI and Lenovo laptops and haven't had any issue. Windows has a much more wild driver ecosystem, and I'm sure there are bad drivers/motherboards/GPUs. (I do have some issues with my MSIs around USB-C docks causing bluescreens and refusing to resume from "screen shut off to save power" but as far as the laptop stuff it's been flawless.)

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#299

Post by lukeschlather »

nrp wrote: post #232
cptskippy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Framework is a personal device, not for work. I might use it once a day or less for a couple hours or less. It was 100% charged this past Saturday night when I picked it up off the charger. I used it for an hour or two looking for doing some planning for Halloween. Nothing serious, just browsing with Firefox. I shut the lid and placed it on the coffee table. I picked it up Sunday night to find the battery had depl…

Windows has automatic Modern Standby to Hibernate support (by default after 5% battery drain in standby). If it is not entering Hibernate, there may be an application keeping the system awake.

This works great for me on my Lenovo, I don't even have to close the lid, it just works. I think I configured it to be a little more aggressive about going to sleep when on battery than the default, but the settings work.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#300

Post by broodbucket »

someguyiguess wrote: post #289
seabrookmx wrote: post #122

The article is pretty light on details. Whether the Framework is worth it to you really depends on your use case. I never leave a laptop in my bag for three weeks, and if I do I have the foresight to actually shut it down rather than sleep it. So the battery drain while sleeping is less of a problem for me. My Framework 13 has the Ryzen 5 AI 340 Chip, and I get 5-6 hours of work on a charge. The Macbooks definitely b…

5-6 hours? In 2025? That's... really bad. My 5 year old Macbook Pro lowest-spec M1 gets at least 10-12 hours of work on a charge and lasts for weeks in sleep mode.

I love my Framework but the battery life is indeed horrendous no matter how you slice it. Combine it with the sleep drain and if I use it for a bit then close it overnight without shutting it down it's probably dead by the morning.
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