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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#291

Post by kelnos »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #270
jacquesm wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in a country under the russian boot at some point and who remembers the USSR from direct experience, you probably have a lot of stuff to study up on. But be careful on what internet connection you do it.

Direct experience of the USSR, in the Netherlands? I must be in the wrong timeline because mine certainly didn't have the Dutch Soviet Socialist Republic! Anyway, it's cute that you chose to respond with a personal attack on me. Looks like you don't have any other argument, and you know it :)

Just because someone currently lives in the Netherlands, it doesn't mean they were born there, or even lived there 30+ years ago.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#292

Post by kelnos »

Aloisius wrote: post #286
yeahforsureman wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that if this passes, the EU Court of Justice will eventually find it more or less in violation with EU fundamental rights. That will take time, though, so I guess they are either hoping that some impossibly secure, reliable and unerring technologies emerge in the meantime, or they are prepared for a forever battle with the Court, coming up with ever new adjustments as soon as previous schemes get stru…

I've looked at the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and don't see why this would violate it. Both the right to privacy and the right to protection of personal data have exemptions for government. The right to private communications was modified by the ECHR to give an exemption for prevention of crime/protection of morals/etc.[1] and the right to protection of personal data exempts any legitimate basis laid down by la…

What's the point, then? The purpose of a document defining people's rights is to help ensure that governments don't trample those rights. If the government has explicit carve-outs to violate those rights, then the Charter isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#293

Post by recursivecaveat »

Ntrails wrote: post #166
bondarchuk wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parliamentary democracy just fundamentally has a weakness when it comes to single-issue voting. After picking a party to vote on based on housing, economic policy, crime, ..., how much voting power so to say is left for.. which guy the party says they'll send to the european commission? And what that guy's stance on chat-control is? If they're even publicizing that...

> how much voting power so to say is left for.. which guy the party says they'll send to the european commission? Short of a direct (referendum based) democracy how do you resolve that?

More expressive voting systems help. If your vote has meaning when cast for something other than 1 of 2 platforms it can encode more of your preferences. Referendums are also not the only variety of direct democracy, you can have sortition.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#294

Post by kelnos »

ptero wrote: post #199
DocTomoe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between 'the government is no prosecuting for speech' and 'the government makes up unrelated charges when they do not like your speech', as seem to happen a lot these days is only a very, very thin line. Rümeysa Öztürk comes to mind [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Rümeysa_Öztürk

Using another pretext to target someone for their views is definitely a thing. This is not new (e.g., the Assange case) but its frequency is increasing. I am going to offend both sides with what comes next (and curious how many downvotes it will attract), but I put only a small fraction of the blame for the increase in the above on the government which always wants to do this unless they feel a strong, popular pushba…

> Whereas 50 years ago, at least in the US, any jury would have thrown an attempt to break laws for a good cause out of court

I think you have an overly rosy view of the legal landscape in the US in the 1970s.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#296

Post by kelnos »

waxyalan wrote: post #137
fwsgonzo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any living person that thinks the UK people want ChatControl? No? Me neither.

With 69% of people supporting the Online Safety Act [1] I'm confident there are people in the UK that would also support Chat Control [1] https://yougov.co.uk/technology/articles/52693-how-have-brit...

Sure, when you frame the question as, "do you support these measures to ensure children don't have access to pornography?", of course people are going to support it.

Present evidence that the new laws will be a danger to their fundamental rights and maybe you won't get quite as much support.

Also, that survey shows that there's broad support even though the same people don't believe the new laws will be effective. So... that's pretty stupid.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#297

Post by Nasrudith »

maybewhenthesun wrote: post #74
amelius wrote: post #2

> This is not about catching criminals. It is mass surveillance imposed on all 450 million citizens of the European Union. I think it is also about catching criminals. And they should change their wording to make it more correct, otherwise they will certainly lose this fight.

I agree. The opponents (I am one for sure) are often saying 'This is not about catching criminals'. And they are correct in the sense that it goes much further than catching criminals alone. But there are a lot of people who are no experts in the matter (even among the politicians deciding this matter) and they will discard reasoning which start with 'it's not about catching criminals', because in many cases that is…

Anybody who believes that it will be used on criminals instead of everyone is dangerously naive.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#298

Post by maxhille »

russnes wrote: post #244

This insane push for surveillance and privacy infringements could be the catalyst needed for the next state exit from the EU

I think the worst european country in terms of online freedom right now is the UK, which kind of defeats your point entirely.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#299

Post by croes »

Yokolos wrote: post #3

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when AfD finally gets enough votes to form a ruling government. Our politicians are insanely shortsighted and somehow don't understand the danger they're enabling.

What did you expect? People voted for the party that gave the previous coalition a hard time because of the debt brake but totally ignored it as soon they came into power.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#300

Post by croes »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #177
tgv wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It's not hard to imagine what they'll try to do, and chat-control will make it easier for them. Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) is against Chat Control. https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#delegates

And the CDU was pro debt break while in opposition.

Just look at the US, the whole free speech and hate speech is nonsense flipped when Trump came to power.

The AfD is not any different. Just look at Höcke who determines the party's agenda.

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