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14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

tribuneindia.com

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Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#291

Post by Quarrelsome »

seneca wrote: post #281
jorgen123 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are downvoted because your first sentence is misinterpreted, or the rest of your argument is not being read? You are giving an example of a position and later on discussing the people who have this position as their first and main principle. Seems like a valid example to me, but perhaps people can explain why not.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I disagree with this portion of the point he's making, but I don't see why people would treat it as not being valuable to the conversation at hand. I think it actually highlights the point of disagreement really well.

can you help me find a more poignant first-order disagreement to use? Perhaps my social democratic context is picking the wrong abstract in order to isolate a better platform of co-operation. In Europe we generally think that universal healthcare is somewhat of a given which sets up the context. In the UK at least (where I am from) belief in the NHS (national health service) is pretty much a political no-brainer.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#292

Post by seneca »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #280
seneca wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a great example of a second-order disagreement. How about people who genuinely believe in a minimal state? They often believe in charitable giving and local community organization, in my experience. Maximal civil society vs maximal government. A good example of this type is people who believe in the ideas laid out in Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia. Even the more hard line Von Mises types are clos…

> How about people who genuinely believe in a minimal state? I agree that its technically a position but while that venn diagram may well include people who believe in charitable giving and local community organization its those who do not believe in those things (which I would argue constitute the majority of that position) who are the problem here. Even so, the idea that everyone gets to choose themselves what the…

> I agree that its technically a position but while that venn diagram may well include people who believe in charitable giving and local community organization its those who do not believe in those things (which I would argue constitute the majority of that position) who are the problem here.

I agree with your broader point. A hair to split is that I tend to see those "you leave me alone, I leave you alone" types as sort of side-line sitters. They're a neutral party who genuinely want to mostly opt out for one reason or another. I don't think that taking a stance of them either being with us or against us is healthy when there are so many genuinely destructive people.

> Even so, the idea that everyone gets to choose themselves what the issues are, belies a lack of unity and community that is close to what I'm trying to define. To respect society, one must give up an aspect of control.

Interesting. I'm curious what you mean here, as this could point a lot of different directions. Are you saying that you don't think individualism is healthy in general?

Do you mean that broad disunity and lack of alignment on societal values is dangerous? If so, I totally agree with that and wonder how it can be squared with modern multi-cultural pluralistic society. I don't, personally, believe in enforcing ideological conformity, but struggle to see how a society that doesn't believe in shared underlying mores can coordinate itself and have shared purpose.

> I think the bigger problem definitely are those who think stealing public money is ok to do.

No disagreement, and I think that's a good starting point. Those plundering the commons for personal gain are pretty clearly first-order opponents.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#293

Post by throwaway29812 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #217
snapcaster wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like comments like this, because while you're right that many people think everything happening everywhere is the CIA. The CIA (and US gov) _has_ been involved in an absurd amount of regime changes (that we know about). CIA involvement in something like this shouldn't be dismissed out of hand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

> CIA involvement in something like this shouldn't be dismissed out of hand Without evidence, yes, it should be. Just as it should be dismissed, if proposed without evidence, that this was the product of Indian, Chinese or Iranian meddling. Particularly when we have credible evidence going the other way of legitimate reasons a population would flip out.

[dead]

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#294

Post by AnimalMuppet »

achenet wrote: post #283
niteshpant wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think when people, particularly in America, think "protest", they think of people walking around with placards and other such relatively low effort involvement. Growing up in Nepal and witnessing some large non-violent and violent protests, I was frankly, baffled to see people standing on the sides of the streets and holding sign boards as protests Where's the rallies? Where is the mass involvement needed for a s…

> Do it for one day nobody cares Do it for a week, people notice Do it for a month, you've got regime change Occupy Wall Street lasted longer than a month, and I'm not sure they achieved regime change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street You could argue that it's below the 3.5% of the total population threshold mentioned in the previous comments tho.

Far below. Occupy Wall Street was perhaps thousands of people. 3.5% of the US would be over 12 million people. 3.5% of New York City would be 350,000 people. In the street outside Wall Street. Yeah, that would have occupied Wall Street, to the point that workers would have had trouble getting in the door. Occupy Wall Street was nothing like that.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#295

Post by seneca »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #291
seneca wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I disagree with this portion of the point he's making, but I don't see why people would treat it as not being valuable to the conversation at hand. I think it actually highlights the point of disagreement really well.

can you help me find a more poignant first-order disagreement to use? Perhaps my social democratic context is picking the wrong abstract in order to isolate a better platform of co-operation. In Europe we generally think that universal healthcare is somewhat of a given which sets up the context. In the UK at least (where I am from) belief in the NHS (national health service) is pretty much a political no-brainer.

I think you hit on it quite well with you statement about stealing public money in your parallel comment, which I generalized to simply "plundering the commons for personal gain". I have no idea why people would downvote the argument, but I think discussing that is generally frowned upon on HN.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#296

Post by noitpmeder »

nomdep wrote: post #268
mandeepj wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite similar corruption is happening here in America! Donald trump made over $3.8B since getting into office this year, while tanking farming, jobs market, and foreign relations.

He made that with the business he already had and some legal cryptocurrency investment based on capitalizing his fame. How on earth you call that "corruption"? Are you even aware of what the word means?

When the dude's family is simultaneously launching and/or on the board of directors of many 'crypto' scams, while he is in office promoting the government owned use of crypto, its pretty much corruption of the first order.

The dude wouldn't even divest himself of his businesses, nor would he reveal his tax returns, both items which would go a significant way toward easing everyone's concerns. (well, maybe actually looking at the tax returns would make everyone a lot more concerned...)

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#297

Post by cherryteastain »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #273
cherryteastain wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their defense, quite a few were [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9ta... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9...

> quite a few were Bay of Pigs wasn't a revolution, it was a failed invasion. The others, however, absolutely were instigated by the CIA. You can compile similar lists for Iran, Russia, France and India. Reflexively dismissing every coup, much less protest, as the product of foreign involvement without evidence isn't thoughtful.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_2506

> Brigade 2506 (Brigada Asalto 2506) was a CIA-sponsored group of Cuban exiles formed in 1960 to attempt the military overthrow of the Cuban government headed by Fidel Castro. It carried out the abortive Bay of Pigs Invasion landings in Cuba on 17 April 1961.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#298

Post by Quarrelsome »

panic wrote: post #282
Quarrelsome wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its quite something that we all waste our time over divisions like left/right, capitalism/socialism, woke/not-woke when in practice; this is the only division that matters. Those who are trying to follow the rules and make the nation better, and those that are only active for their self-interest.

This sounds nice until you think more closely about the framing implicit in “follow the rules and make the nation better”. Who makes the rules and defines what is good for a nation?

sorry, "rule following" is possibly a sub-optimal language choice. I more mean the sort of selfishness that leads to corruption. Those who see their turn in government less about directing the nation and more as their turn to line their pockets and abuse their power.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#299

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dmbche wrote: post #228
somenameforme wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when people, particularly in America, think "protest", they think of people walking around with placards and other such relatively low effort involvement. That article is talking about incidents where you have 3.5% of people (that would be 12 million people in the US) engaging in things like organized and real boycotts (as opposed to 'Yeah I'm boycotting [this place I've never even heard of, let alone shopped…

Then again, Canada had a whole convoy that tried to protest but that got stamped out.

> Canada had a whole convoy that tried to protest but that got stamped out

It was an anti-vax protest [1]. Canada isn't anti vax [2]. The protests were unpopular [3][4].

The convoy didn't go anywhere because it had nowhere to go.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_convoy_protest#cite_not...

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/measles-vaccination-poll-1.75...

[3] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/fact-check-canad...

[4] https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/two-thirds-of-canadia...

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#300

Post by JumpCrisscross »

zahlman wrote: post #249
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No evidence of any of that. I don’t see how it’s incredible to believe students will flip out if you ban social media. (Though the meme of all protests and civil discontent in Asia being the product of Western influence is a popular one among right-wing circles.)

> the meme of all protests and civil discontent in Asia being the product of Western influence is a popular one among right-wing circles I listen to enough "right-wing circles" to end up getting people tarnishing me as one just for standing up for them (despite all kinds of progressive views) and I frankly don't know what you're talking about. My friends that tend to get interpreted as "right-coded" have historically…

In Asia.
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