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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#291

Post by codr7 »

incomingpain wrote: post #76
codr7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing irrational about it, this is how you maximize power and profit at any and all costs.

I completely get that point of view; and yes if that's the goal, it's completely rational. But from a societal cohesion or perhaps even an ethical point of view it's just pure irrationality. When typing the post, I was thinking, different levels of government, changing ideologies of politicians leaving inconsistent governance.

I couldn't agree more, but we've long since given up our power collectively in hope of escaping responsibility.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#292

Post by sdwr »

dcminter wrote: post #279
lordnacho wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I immediately become suspicious of anyone who is very certain of something Me too, in almost every area of life. There's a reason it's called a conman: they are tricking your natural sense that confidence is connected to correctness. But also, even when it isn't about conning you, how do people become certain of something? They ignored the evidence against whatever they are certain of. People who actually know what…

In the term "conman" the confidence in question is that of the mark, not the perpetrator.

Isn't confidence referring to the alternate definition of trust, as in "taking you into his confidence"?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#293

Post by tempfile »

tim333 wrote: post #250
ar-nelson wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find Yudowsky-style rationalists morbidly fascinating in the same way as Scientologists and other cults. Probably because they seem to genuinely believe they're living in a sci-fi story. I read a lot of their stuff, probably too much, even though I find it mostly ridiculous. The biggest nonsense axiom I see in the AI-cult rationalist world is recursive self-improvement. It's the classic reason superintelligence tak…

I've pondered recursive self-improvement. I'm fairly sure it will be a thing - we're at a point already where people could try telling Claude or some such to have a go, even if not quite at a point it would work. But I imagine take off would be very gradual. It would be constrained by available computing resources and probably only comparably good to current human researchers and so still take ages to get anywhere.

I honestly am not trying to be rude when I say this, but this is exactly the sort of speculation I find problematic and that I think most people in this thread are complaining about. Being able to tell Claude to have a go has no relation at all to whether it may ever succeed, and you don't actually address any of the legitimate concerns the comment you're replying to points out. There really isn't anything in this comment but vibes.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#294

Post by paviva »

jpiburn wrote: post #252
JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

"Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it" - Voltaire

Most likely Gide ("Croyez ceux qui cherchent la vérité, doutez de ceux qui la trouvent", "Believe those who seek Truth, doubt those who find it") and not Voltaire ;)

Voltaire was generally more subtle: "un bon mot ne prouve rien", a witty saying proves nothing, as he'd say.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#295

Post by [deleted] »

akomtu wrote: post #244

It's a religion of an overdeveloped mind that hides from everything it cannot understand. It's an anti-religion, in a sense, that puts your mind on the pedestal. Note the common pattern in major religions: they tell you that thoughts and emotions obscure the light of intuition, like clouds obscure sunlight. Rationalism is the opposite: it denies the very idea of intuition, or anything above the sphere of thoughts, an…

[deleted]

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#296

Post by AndrewKemendo »

I was on LW when it emerged from the OB blog and back then it was a interesting and engaging group, though even then there were like 5 “major” contributors - most of which had no coherent academic or commercial success.

As soon as those “sequences” were being developed it was clearly turning into a cult around EY, that I never understood and still don’t.

This article did a good job of covering the history since and was really well written.

Water finds its own level

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#297

Post by abtinf »

jl6 wrote: post #187
JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

I don’t think it’s just (or even particularly) bad axioms, I think it’s that people tend to build up “logical” conclusions where they think each step is a watertight necessity that follows inevitably from its antecedents, but actually each step is a little bit leaky, leading to runaway growth in false confidence. Not that non-rationalists are any better at reasoning, but non-rationalists do at least benefit from some…

> non-rationalists do at least benefit from some intellectual humility

The Islamists who took out the World Trade Center don’t strike me as particularly intellectually humble.

If you reject reason, you are only left with force.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#298

Post by ajkjk »

Muromec wrote: post #251
Mizza wrote: post #231

It's amphetamine. All of these people are constantly tweaking. They're annoying people to begin with, but they're all constantly yakked up and won't stop babbling. It's really obvious, I don't know why it isn't highlighted more in all these post Ziz articles.

How do you know?

Presumably they mean Adderall. Plausible theory tbh. Although it's just a factor not an explanation.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#299

Post by tibbar »

jl6 wrote: post #187
JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

I don’t think it’s just (or even particularly) bad axioms, I think it’s that people tend to build up “logical” conclusions where they think each step is a watertight necessity that follows inevitably from its antecedents, but actually each step is a little bit leaky, leading to runaway growth in false confidence. Not that non-rationalists are any better at reasoning, but non-rationalists do at least benefit from some…

Yet I think most people err in the other direction. They 'know' the basics of health, of discipline, of charity, but have a hard time following through. 'Take a simple idea, and take it seriously': a favorite aphorism of Charlie Munger. Most of the good things in my life have come from trying to follow through the real implications of a theoretical belief.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#300

Post by saghm »

cjameskeller wrote: post #209
saghm wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without speaking for religions I'm not familiar with, I grew up Catholic, and one of the most important Catholic beliefs is that during Mass, the bread (i.e. "communion" wafers) and wine quite literally transform into the body and blood of Jesus, and that eating and drinking it is a necessary ritual to get into heaven[1], which was a source of controversy even back as far as the Protestant Reformation, with some sect…

To be fair, the description of the dragon incident is pretty mundane, and all he does is prove that the large reptile they had previously been feeding (& worshiping) could be killed: "Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and did seethe them together, and made lumps thereof: this he put in the dragon's mouth, and so the dragon burst in sunder: and Daniel said, Lo, these are the gods ye worship."

I don't think it's mundane to cause something to "burst in sunder" by putting some pitch, fat, and hair in its mouth.
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