Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

apnorc.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 563 posts

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#291

Post by stephen_cagle »

gruez wrote: post #162
Epa095 wrote: post #138

I encourage everyone to do the following simple exercise: look at the main stock market in your country, and see how far back you must go for the main index to be half of what it is today. The answer is probably somewhere between 5 and 7 years. Then find salary statistics, and see how much the average salary has increased in the same time. The answer is probably somewhere between 20 and 30%. And it really is as simpl…

>And it really is as simple as that. It really isn't, because your "simple" comparison is bunk. For one, it's measuring stock vs flow. Stock prices measure stock, eg. the size of a piggy bank. Salaries measure flow, eg. your annual salary. Directly comparing the two results is meaningless. It's easy to demonstrate this with the piggy bank example. If your salary was 50k/year, you saved 5k/year, then your piggy bank w…

At the risk of being pedantic, is a "piggy bank" really the right metaphor for this? A piggy bank has actual money within it, regardless of what I think of the piggy bank, it still has money within it. While a stock's total market cap technically only represents the last transaction price multiplied by the number of outstanding shares (kinda). Anyway, just making the point that it isn't like a "bank" in that there is not money in a container of any sort (obviously, banks lend out their own deposits so even my correction is also wrong).

I'm don't have anything better to replace it with, but I am just questioning the "piggy bank" as a metaphor here.

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#292

Post by burnt-resistor »

Epa095 wrote: post #138

I encourage everyone to do the following simple exercise: look at the main stock market in your country, and see how far back you must go for the main index to be half of what it is today. The answer is probably somewhere between 5 and 7 years. Then find salary statistics, and see how much the average salary has increased in the same time. The answer is probably somewhere between 20 and 30%. And it really is as simpl…

Go back 50 years, and 95% of Americans should be raising Cain. Of OECD countries, the US has ridiculous income inequality distribution and effective reductions in purchasing power over time. https://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM

Anecdotally: Someone would need to make $350k/yr to live where I grew up in a not great area where there were robberies, shootings, and thumping radios all the time. Also, where my blue-collar grandparents lived requires an income of around $475k/yr to afford a 30 yr mortgage. The latter is equivalent to a salary of buying 2 houses/yr where I live now.

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#293

Post by Aunche »

smileysteve wrote: post #118
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACA was a huge compromise and didn’t really do anything to tackle why American healthcare costs are so high. I can see it being washed away for a plan that is actually better, and that isn’t going back to the way things were before it.

It originally did a substantial number of things to limit cost increases - the individual mandate - % required spending on actual Medicare care by health insurers (limiting administrative and marketing expenses) But each of those elements were later removed either legislatively or judicially.

> % required spending on actual Medicare care by health insurers (limiting administrative and marketing expenses)

That part stayed in. Note that this actually isn't relevant for most people get their insurance through an employer who self funds their plan.

https://www.cms.gov/marketplace/private-health-insurance/med...

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#294

Post by Epa095 »

gruez wrote: post #255
Epa095 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to look at dividend yields, but I can pretty much guarantee that it has not halfed in the period the stock market doubled. Most likely it stayed relatively flat, somewhere between 1.5% and 2%. So if you had 100 million you would get 1.7 million as dividend 5-7 years ago, now it's roughly doubled, without selling any of your stocks. Not that it really matters. Given how much faster the stock market grows com…

>Feel free to look at dividend yields, but I can pretty much guarantee that it has not halfed in the period the stock market doubled. Most likely it stayed relatively flat, somewhere between 1.5% and 2%. Eyeballing this chart it looks like it dropped around a third since the pandemic. https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/spx-div-yld.... https://ycharts.com/indicators/sp_500_dividend_yield

(First, I apologise that this message must be hasty, I must do life stuff).

I really feel like your first graph proves my point? OK, at times it goes up, at times it goes down. But since 2002 the dividend is the same, but the S&P 500 is 7x. So the lazy capitalist puting in 10 million there in 2002 got 132k in yearly 'income' then, now he gets 925k yearly.

You wanna figure out how much average salary increased the same period? I am willing to bet it's closer to 2 than 7.

And that shows who gets the fruit of our increased productivity. Owners.

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#295

Post by FabHK »

techdmn wrote: post #234
Herring wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but I suggest that's only part of the story. For some reason, workers in the west don't organize/vote by class any more. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/why-americans-dont-v... In the US, the last time democrats tried to tackle healthcare, they lost scores of seats all down the ballot. https://www.quorum.us/data-driven-insights/under-obama-democ... I remember tracking Trump's poll numbers on 538 (befo…

Can't speak for anyone but myself of course, but I was pretty disappointed with the way Democrats under Obama tackled healthcare. One of the big differences between Obama and Clinton in the primaries was that Clinton was in favor of an individual mandate, and Obama was not. We still ended up with an individual mandate, which is both offensive on grounds that the government is forcing you to find and pay for insurance…

> with an individual mandate, which is both offensive

I find the mandate entirely inoffensive. Its purpose is not to ensure that insurance companies stay profitable. Its purpose is to avoid adverse selection, and to ensure that everyone adequately ensures against health risks, to avoid forcing others to either pick up the tab or watch people being kicked out of hospitals and die miserably.

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#296

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

ch4s3 wrote: post #220
jrmg wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no lover of the US healthcare system - other countries get better outcomes for less than is spent by the US government - and basically all their costs are borne by the government, unlike in the US. But: you have to be careful with large numbers. There are 0.3 billion people in the USA. United Healthcare says they cover 51 million. That $20 billion is $392 per insured person - a lot, sure, but hardly a large fract…

> and basically all their costs are borne by the government The costs are born by people paying 20-25% VAT. The government just collects and disperses those funds. This may be more efficient, but the cost is born by everyone in society. > Compared with other countries, the inefficiency of for-profit healthcare The US health system(s) are a patchwork of non for profit entities, for profits, government programs, and em…

Does VAT really go entirely to healthcare?

If not, we'd have to compare with the total taxloads borne by citizens of compared countries

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#297

Post by marcusverus »

phyzix5761 wrote: post #76

I did some math a while ago on this topic: 40 million Americans live below the poverty line of $15,000 per year. [1] Total U.S. household net worth (excluding real estate) is around $54 trillion. [2] If every household above the poverty line donated 2.5% of their net worth annually to people living below the poverty line, we could erase poverty instantly. Here’s the math: 2.5% of $54 trillion = $1.35 trillion $1.35 t…

> 40 million Americans live below the poverty line of $15,000 per year.

Not even close. Census income data is not an accurate measure of poverty, as it excludes all in-kind redistributions (food stamps, HUD, medicaid, head start, etc) AND excludes cash programs like the "refundable tax credits". A more accurate line would be "40 million people would be living in poverty if we weren't already spending >1 Trillion dollars per year on food stamps, HUD, medicaid, and other programs."

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#298

Post by cloverich »

mathiaspoint wrote: post #228
jrmg wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being forced to buy insurance with a premium so high my risk adjusted return for self insuring is actually higher This is how all insurance works though. Everyone pays in, and those unlucky enough to experience catastrophic problems get a way bigger payout than those who don’t. Pooling risk is the entire point of insurance. Without that, it’s not insurance, it’s just a payment system, and those unfortunate enough t…

That infact is not how insurance works. You don't charge low risk people insane premia because it isn't fair. My car insurance is far cheaper than my sister's for this reason for example. Even if I had an event (outside something way out in the tails where I might not even want the treatment anyway if it's free because my QoL suffers too much either way) I'm coming out with a loss because I'm forced to subsidize care…

Right but you'll quickly see that analogy doesn't work in another way. With car insurance, its possible I can pay into it my entire life and NEVER have an accident (my current trajectory). I deserve a lower rate!

With health insurance, you are 100% guaranteed to become sick and die, at some point. So the options are either, everyone pays in and it covers everyone, or it only covers a small subset of issues, and everyone gets dropped when they get really sick (the prior state). The latter is definitely cheaper, because its cheaper to let people die / let them suffer than it is to keep them alive / healthy. That is effectively the choice to make.

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#299

Post by phyzix5761 »

Aurornis wrote: post #141
phyzix5761 wrote: post #76

I did some math a while ago on this topic: 40 million Americans live below the poverty line of $15,000 per year. [1] Total U.S. household net worth (excluding real estate) is around $54 trillion. [2] If every household above the poverty line donated 2.5% of their net worth annually to people living below the poverty line, we could erase poverty instantly. Here’s the math: 2.5% of $54 trillion = $1.35 trillion $1.35 t…

If you put a 2.5% annual tax on net worth, that net worth would very rapidly find its way to other countries. Wealthy people would learn to structure their earnings to flow into businesses in other countries to avoid this wealth tax. This would reduce income tax in the United States. I would guess the overall effect would trend toward a net tax loss. If you gave 40 million people an extra $15K per year to spend, the…

The $15k is being transferred from entity A to entity B. Both entities are not spending the $15k so there wouldn't be any effect on inflation. If you printed an extra $15k then that would cause inflation because both entity A and entity B would be spending $15k.

Inflation, which means a steady rise in prices overall, happens only when the total money supply in an economy grows. This increase in money, often called "printing money," can be physical cash or digital money created through lending and government policies. Without more money in the system, if prices go up in one area, they have to go down somewhere else because the total money available limits how much can be spent on everything. Sometimes prices rise temporarily due to supply problems, but that is not true inflation unless there is more money chasing goods. This key idea, highlighted by Milton Friedman in his Nobel Prize winning work, shows that lasting inflation is mainly caused by increases in the money supply.

Re: Food, housing, & health care costs are a source of major stress for many people

#300

Post by alexjplant »

marcusverus wrote: post #269
inerte wrote: post #200

A few months ago I had a persistent irritation on my right eye, as if some dust was stuck there. Worried about it, I went to Urgent care and got billed $3400 (dollars) for antibiotics, WHICH WERE WRONG, an actual ophthalmologist said I had it scratched and just had to apply some drops. $250 for the ophthalmologist and about $50 for the drops. This week I am in Brazil for vacation, and my mother-in-law had a lot of ba…

> persistent irritation > went to Urgent care You waited until it became a problem, then went to an expensive option instead of contacting your GP and getting a recommendation for an in-network care? And were surprised that it was expensive? This is healthcare 101 in the US. You could have gotten the same care for a reasonable price had you done 1 hour of due diligence. We do not need to remake the system--which will…

...in what world does it make sense to charge the cost of a motorcycle for a few minutes of a doctor/NP's time and $15 worth of drugs? Jumping through bureaucratic hoops to avoid this is a waste of everybody's time.
Post reply on HN