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Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

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Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#291

Post by matthewowen »

Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

but cycling races are won by being able to put out a critical extra 50 watts for a few minutes at a key point in the race. I don't think anyone is trying to motor the whole way up a climb, but I can imagine how you could have a useful motor if you're just trying to run for ten minutes total? at that point it's analagous to the <250g drones that are out there.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#292

Post by lbreakjai »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #231
cujo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

have you seen the physiques and workloads that nba/nhl/mlb players are dealing with these days? these athletes have more incentive than cyclists to dope ($$$), and the testing in those sports is a joke. there are obvious performance benefits for traditional endurance sports, but the testing infrastructure is pretty robust and the financial incentives are much less than those big team sports. it's harder to dope (and…

I totally believe that a lot of basketball/football/baseball players take something. But the effect won’t be as important as in cycling or marathon or 100 m sprint where you need pure physicality.

The effect doesn't really matter. If it gives you a 2% edge, and you don't take it, then you're 2% off the top. That may be the difference between having a career at all and thinking about what could have been at your desk job.

Sure, there's no drugs that will turn you into prime Messi. But there are drugs that will let Messi play like prime Messi for 90 minutes, 3 times a week, 48 weeks a year, which is incredibly valuable.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#293

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

wyre wrote: post #260
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still races with much longer "stages" than 466km, but they are not part of the contemporary pro-cycling world. The classic brevet events, Paris-Brest-Paris and Boston-Montreal-Boston are 1200km ridden as a single stage. PBP is older than the TDF also, starting in 1891. The nature of brevet events means that they can essentially never be a spectator sport, hence the lack of any significant attention to them.

Pedantically, brevets are not races.

In what sense is PBP not a race? It is a timed event, with a cutoff. The organization that runs it maintains a results list that includes times.

If you mean there are no prizes, then fair enough, but that's not my definition of a race.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#294

Post by hackingonempty »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #199
littlestymaar wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Tour de France was originally intended to be so tough that only one person might finish it. The difficulty has been toned down a lot since the early days though. (You'll never see a 466km long stage like the first of Tour de France 1903[1] ever again). [1]: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1re_%C3%A9tape_du_Tour_de_Fr... )

There are still races with much longer "stages" than 466km, but they are not part of the contemporary pro-cycling world. The classic brevet events, Paris-Brest-Paris and Boston-Montreal-Boston are 1200km ridden as a single stage. PBP is older than the TDF also, starting in 1891. The nature of brevet events means that they can essentially never be a spectator sport, hence the lack of any significant attention to them.

With satellite trackers and social media these kinds of events have developed into a spectator sport. Bikepacking races tend to be in more remote locales than the French countryside so racers are required to carry a satellite tracker which reports to a public website. "Dot watchers" who live along the route come out to watch racers go by or leave water/snacks in coolers along the side of the road. Far more dot watchers are limited to the live tracker and check daily updates from racers or journalists covering the event on social media.

After the event some racers upload videos for spectators and it helps them with sponsorship. This video gives a glimpse into what its like to race the Tour Divide competitively. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azJS106xeNA

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#295

Post by registeredcorn »

brrrrrm wrote: post #261
registeredcorn wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the benefit of smart play doesn't seem as significant compared to doping up and pressing hard. For the athlete, or for the team? For professional racing strategy is in the hands of the team members on the sidelines - it's less of a team sport (as in athlete) and more of a group sport (as in information parity.) Whether it's motor races or TdF, there's a significant number of factors to consider. What you are going t…

sure, numerous examples can be shown to say smart play does help. but, would you argue the net benefits of smart play are identical between a sport like basketball and racing?

I don't think I'm well informed enough to answer that. I certainly don't think they are identical, though.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#296

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

hackingonempty wrote: post #294
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still races with much longer "stages" than 466km, but they are not part of the contemporary pro-cycling world. The classic brevet events, Paris-Brest-Paris and Boston-Montreal-Boston are 1200km ridden as a single stage. PBP is older than the TDF also, starting in 1891. The nature of brevet events means that they can essentially never be a spectator sport, hence the lack of any significant attention to them.

With satellite trackers and social media these kinds of events have developed into a spectator sport. Bikepacking races tend to be in more remote locales than the French countryside so racers are required to carry a satellite tracker which reports to a public website. "Dot watchers" who live along the route come out to watch racers go by or leave water/snacks in coolers along the side of the road. Far more dot watche…

What I mean by a "spectator sport" in this context is primarily that the event can be monetized because huge numbers of people will watch it either in person or via video of some sort.

The number of people watching the trans-europe or other similar solo events as they happen is likely less than the population of a typical US liberal arts school. The monetization that might follow from YT videos that occurs later is completely different from what the TdF manages to encourage. The winner of 2023's Tour Divide has 58k views ... even Lael only gets 300k or so views for her adventuring and racing videos. This is not a spectator sport in any sort of historical sense of that term.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#297

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

jeffbee wrote: post #246
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aero doesn't matter at all on hill climbs, they are going too slow there for that.

That wasn't the question. The question would be whether a team would trade mass for drag and the answer is clearly yes. Every elite team has lighter and heavier bikes that are suited to different events.

from GP:

> Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance

(emphasis mine)

TDF time trials are almost never uphill. And yes, they have different bikes, showing that that while they might trade mass for drag during a time trial stage, they would do the opposite for hill climb stages. So "aero is the only thing that matters" is clearly false.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#298

Post by mft_ »

tokai wrote: post #121
mft_ wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Motordoping does not exist. It does exist : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femke_Van_den_Driessche Aside from allegations about Cancellara (basically that his seated attack was too strong, plus he 'moved his hand suspiciously' just before) I always struggled to find an alternate explanantion for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc > There has not been a single case at top professional level even though…

This is the thing that's always brought up. That female junior cyclocross racer (its a different sport bub) and one attack that fans didn't like. People like you keep going with these two, even though they mean nothing. And then the conspiracy shit. The motodoping topic is closer related to pizzagate than it is road racing.

Cyclocross is a marginally different sport, bub. You not noticed that there are a couple of crossers doing good things on the roads?

And if a (comparatively) little-known mid-level U23 crosser (therefore with comparatively little money behind her) was doing it, you really think it's limited to just her?

Lastly, the video I posted wasn't Cancellara.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#299

Post by phtrivier »

jnpnj wrote: post #276
phtrivier wrote: post #265

Best summary ever for the TdF: [1] Kidding aside, this is one of those fields where I don't know how to use Occam's Razor. Given the fact: "in a sport that is mostly about physical capacity, some racers now routinely achieve better performances than racers that where dopped, but excaped controls, 20 years ago". What is the explanation that requires the less priors: * some teams have perfected training regimen, equipm…

> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVB7OX0Oa-Q this is something I never expected to see on HN.

"No one expects the comedy show from 25 years ago"
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