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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#291
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not knowing anything about guns I would assume you would engage the safety when putting the weapon in the holster. Is that not true?

Many modern guns for personal protection do not have manually actuated safeties and instead rely on other mechanisms to prevent accidental discharge. For example, glocks have a "trigger safety." Without getting into minutia, these sort of features do a fine job of ensuring the gun does not fire unless the trigger is intentionally actuated. The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters…

> The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage.

I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary is malicious, carrying a round in the chamber, and decides to pull on you, he has the element of surprise. There is no real-world situation where you are really just that much better at drawing and firing accurately that you will out-draw an adversary who drew on you first, with the possible exception of Special Forces / Navy SEAL types who drill it ad-nauseum and had 99th-percentile reaction speed to begin with. But thinking that ordinary people can do it is sheer hubris. Thinking you can do it from concealed carry is utterly laughable.

In a real world firefight you're either close enough where martial arts is relevant or you're not. If martial arts are relevant, then the guns are irrelevant. If you're further away, what matters is whether you can get behind cover, which will give you time to unholster your weapon, disengage the safety, and chamber a round.

You don't decide to carry a gun in public because you think it will save you if someone walks up to you from behind and decides to shoot you in the back. You do it for the times when gunfights are not resolved with the first shot. Responsible citizens carry their guns in such a way that prioritizes the safety of those around them before their own personal safety.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many modern guns for personal protection do not have manually actuated safeties and instead rely on other mechanisms to prevent accidental discharge. For example, glocks have a "trigger safety." Without getting into minutia, these sort of features do a fine job of ensuring the gun does not fire unless the trigger is intentionally actuated. The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters…

> The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary i…

THIS.

Unfortunately, public perceptions are mostly driven by:

(1) Mass media portrayals - which are carefully scripted to maximize market share, clicks, and sales

(2) Rule of Cool - or whatever "feels right", to emotionally-driven humans living in a society where guns are a major point of contention in a bitter culture war

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#293

> That campaign included a successful effort this year to secure a change in New Hampshire law that will protect Sig Sauer from future liability lawsuits regarding allegations the gun should come equipped with certain safety features. If you want to know how we arrived at this particular moment in American history and society, this is a fine place to start.

Yeah it’s just an incredibly crisp example of how corporations are valued above people.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#294
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know some people who went into the air force out of high school. They are idiots Every population has some idiots in it. My point is the Air Force is difficult to get into, has a high fraction of educated servicemembers [1], has lower turnover and higher pay than the other branches. (Back when we measured IQ, the Air Force had a higher average IQ than the other branches and population.) I know idiots who work at…

I'm not sure if this is the message you intended, but it's worth noting that having a high IQ doesn't necessarily prevent someone from being an idiot. Historically the word "idiot" was used particularly with those with very low IQ scores but now is a pejorative term.

Within the context, we’re talking about someone who can be trusted to be mature with a firearm. That’s more true for an average Air Force servicemember than the average American. I’d reflect OP’e scepticism if we were talking about the average Army, Marine or Navy servicemember, in large part because young men are stupid and the folks in those services skew younger than the Air Force.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#295
post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

> I have not had the self-recall fix done

Why? Also, isn't that only an issue in early P320s? (at least according to Sig)

> and I'll never chamber a round in it again

Isn't this good enough for most uses? Heck, a long time ago I was trained to only chamber after unholstering AND entering a situation requiring quick response. The extra round not being worth the risk. 17 instead of 17+1 for the 9mm P320, right?

Honestly, this all smells like an overblown hysteria campaign to pump American brands. I would like to see the accidental discharge rate per units in use. This is one of the most popular handguns.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dichotomy is obviously false though. If an attacker doesn't have a firearm you probably have time to chamber a round, if the attacker misses a shot at you you have time to chamber a round, if you have time to take cover you may have time to chamber a round and then be in an approximately 50-50 situation, etc.

This might be the impression one gets from watching movies or television shows, but its not reality. Anyone who has either trained with a handgun, or even just viewed videos of real-world confrontations will know that this isn't the case. In many encounters you have almost no time. Racking the slide and acquiring the target adds a massive amount of time (its even worse when you are under pressure). Most defensive use…

Six metres is half a tennis court. That's a distance that I can easily run to get in position to hit a volley. Of course you can run that distance and stab someone as he takes his gun out, and if you are to counter that you must move too.

If you're rooted as a tree, of course you'll be killed. You must make use of your own movement to create time, just as Nadal does when he step diagonally back from the ball 'sal y entra'.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dichotomy is obviously false though. If an attacker doesn't have a firearm you probably have time to chamber a round, if the attacker misses a shot at you you have time to chamber a round, if you have time to take cover you may have time to chamber a round and then be in an approximately 50-50 situation, etc.

> if the attacker misses a shot at you you have time to chamber a round Is that based on recorded personal times, or are you just assuming? Because I can shoot the mozambique in 1.9 seconds. Chambering a round is much slower than that.

I mean that you must take cover upon him missing, and then somehow reposition yourself and fight.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#298
post #293

> That campaign included a successful effort this year to secure a change in New Hampshire law that will protect Sig Sauer from future liability lawsuits regarding allegations the gun should come equipped with certain safety features. If you want to know how we arrived at this particular moment in American history and society, this is a fine place to start.

Yeah it’s just an incredibly crisp example of how corporations are valued above people.

I am sure those corporations highly valued the people they were giving a large sum of money to in a brown envelope to make that happen.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many modern guns for personal protection do not have manually actuated safeties and instead rely on other mechanisms to prevent accidental discharge. For example, glocks have a "trigger safety." Without getting into minutia, these sort of features do a fine job of ensuring the gun does not fire unless the trigger is intentionally actuated. The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters…

> The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary i…

[flagged]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#300
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I’d take the $200 and run.

Maybe give them the gun, take the $200 and then run.

Better to be pointing it away from you when it goes off than having it pointed at you.
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