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Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

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Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#291

Post by zikduruqe »

Dr4kn wrote: post #109
jacobgkau wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Works best in areas with patchy or no internet, or under censorship. The biggest problem I immediately foresee is that this sounds backwards. It doesn't work best in areas with patchy or no internet, it works best in areas with lots of participating devices. It's most needed in areas with patchy or no internet, but those areas are likely to be the opposite of the areas with lots of participating devices.

If your country shuts off Internet access for demonstrations this would work great.

That is what https://berty.tech is for.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#292

Post by hiatus »

Marlinski wrote: post #274
moneywaters wrote: post #96

I’ve been toying with a concept inspired by Apple’s Find My network: Imagine a decentralized, delay-tolerant messaging system where messages hop device-to-device (e.g., via Bluetooth, UWB, Wi-Fi Direct), similar to how “Find My” relays location via nearby iPhones. Now add a twist: • Senders pay a small fee to send a message. • Relaying devices earn a micro-payment (could be tokens, sats, etc.) for carrying the messag…

that was basically Rumble an app I developped 10 years ago: https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble I worked the field both academic and startup, I even made one of the first implementation of the Bundle protocol for store carry and forward (IETF transport protocol for the deep space network RFC9171). Turns out the Mobile OS are making this kind of communication nearly impossible. To work well, it basically needs backgro…

> Turns out the Mobile OS are making this kind of communication nearly impossible. To work well, it basically needs background job (automatic scan of nearby ble/wifi/radio) and automatic connection without user interaction (imagine being prompted to accept a connection every time you pass by someone), both have been basically made impossible (especially after covid).

Isn't this how some covid-specific apps work to let you know if you've come in contact with an identified carrier? https://www.gao.gov/blog/covid-19-exposure-notification-apps...

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#293

Post by immibis »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #169
hackpelican wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does routing work? How do I know that for device A to reach device B, I need to go through device C but not D? And if I try to go through device D but device C actually delivers the message, then does device D get paid? How would you validate which devices actually participated in the transmission of the message? How does this not turn into a privacy nightmare?

This is a problem solved multiple times in the past. Look up "distributed peer to peer" e.g. kademlia

Kademlia relies on an already existing all-to-all mesh (the internet). Nobody has created an actual mesh routing protocol which works very well.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#294

Post by bee_rider »

subscribed wrote: post #150
vishnugupta wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiking, Airplane, stadia (here in India the tower capacity get exhausted), underground metro etc

Hiking? Probably not very useful since you must be within Bluetooth range and you can whisper to your chat partner. If you're hiking in the remote area youre much better off with LoRaWAN or amateur radio transceivers anyway.

I dunno, I bet if it was widespread people could come up with applications. Like, telling people doesn’t necessarily leave a record, so you could talk about tomorrow’s plans and then send a summary text so everyone has a record and all the details.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#295

Post by immibis »

clarkmoody wrote: post #250
bee_rider wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the payment work? You pass along a message, and get a token in return. Then, some options: 1) the message never makes it through 2) the message makes it through, via your path 3) the message makes it through, but via some other path, and yours is really a dead end Also, how would you handle the case where multiple peers all get the message and send it through the same bottleneck node? I guess you’d want to…

Bitcoin Lightning Network solves the routing payment problem via a series of cascading unlocks of value across the route. Nodes can change their fee policy independent of the network, so the bottleneck node could make more money in your scenario. Then those high fees attract additional nodes to provide liquidity along that route, bringing fee competition.

Bitcoin Lightning requires realtime communication with every node in the route. If you can communicate with enough nodes to negotiate passing a message, you could also just send the message.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#296

Post by immibis »

beefnugs wrote: post #267
clarkmoody wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin Lightning Network solves the routing payment problem via a series of cascading unlocks of value across the route. Nodes can change their fee policy independent of the network, so the bottleneck node could make more money in your scenario. Then those high fees attract additional nodes to provide liquidity along that route, bringing fee competition.

So painful when people recommend bitcoin lightning. Its technically interesting... but complete nonsense to pay like $50 just for one "hop" of the payment chain. It would be an upfront cost of hundreds to get a payment chain you planned on spending fractions of a penny per day/week/month

Hm? As I understood it, you lock up some money, and then secretly agree to reallocate it with the Lightning protocol, and then eventually get it back in the latest allocation. So it costs $50 and then you get $50 back - or $60 or $40.

This is an interesting thing when financial institutions do it between themselves. It's completely useless as a consumer-facing payment system. Consumers aren't going to plan in advance how much money to lock up, that's just stupid.

I assume you're not referring to the transaction fee because last I heard, it's not currently $25.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#297

Post by RiverCrochet »

snickerer wrote: post #194
moneywaters wrote: post #96

I’ve been toying with a concept inspired by Apple’s Find My network: Imagine a decentralized, delay-tolerant messaging system where messages hop device-to-device (e.g., via Bluetooth, UWB, Wi-Fi Direct), similar to how “Find My” relays location via nearby iPhones. Now add a twist: • Senders pay a small fee to send a message. • Relaying devices earn a micro-payment (could be tokens, sats, etc.) for carrying the messag…

This is already mostly done. Participate in the development of Reticulum. Install the app Sideband on your Smartphone or other device. Sideband is a chat app that uses LXMF. LXMF is a messaging protocol based on Reticulum. Reticulum is a full network stack that is decentralized and transport layer agnostic. What we need for your vision is LoRa modems integrated in our phones. Or just a bluetooth mesh interface for Re…

> Implement a new interface type that uses the technology called 'bluetooth mesh' and your vision is done.

Reticulum supports using serial ports as interfaces, so if you get serial-over-Bluetooth working it can be done now.

One other thing I really like about Reticulum is that it also supports generic stdin/stdout to a process as an interface, so with some scripting and what not you can literally make it work over anything.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#298

Post by MangoToupe »

dylan604 wrote: post #284
pizzafeelsright wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Irreversible is bad because mistakes happen. I lost ~$1,000 in a bad transfer because of a typo. Publicly verifiable -- not good because I don't want the public knowing what I buy. Pseudonymous is the worst of both. Is it or is it not me? them? I am thinking digital cash using pub keys on a network run from space on something like starlink sats.

> I lost ~$1,000 in a bad transfer because of a typo. Was the option of doing a much smaller amount available to validate the account before following up with the full transfer? I've never understood not doing a test transfer first.

You can still make a mistake after the test transfer.

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#299

Post by immibis »

pjerem wrote: post #93
woleium wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, sadly, as evidenced by apple’s share price, not enough people.

That’s only because there is only one alternative that is more or less equally shitty (Android) and no room for any competition whatsoever. It’s not like people really have options to choose when it comes to choosing a smartphone. It’s easy to have a growing share price when you are a duopoly. You don’t have to serve your users.

Android may be shitty but it allows you to install an APK you downloaded from god knows where, and that's enough of a deal-making feature for me.

I also own a Linux phone, but I don't use it. Maybe one day someone will create one that's actually usable...

Re: Bitchat – A decentralized messaging app that works over Bluetooth mesh networks

#300

Post by teiferer »

al_borland wrote: post #263
teiferer wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though demonstration organizers could run around with QR codes making it easy for everybody to install the right app to communicate with each other during the demonstration. As long as people can side-load things on their phones, this should be possible without any way to stop it unless you deploy radio jammers. (Which is then the logical next step for police equipment in so minded states.)

People are supposed to scan a sketchy QR code to side load an app? That sounds like a security nightmare. Those working against the demonstrators could send people out with QR code to infect the phones will malware for their own means.

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