Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion • Hacker News Board

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#291

Post by brirec » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:03 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #220

josho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics. I 1000% agree we need a digital bill of rights. It pains me every time a “well behaved” website pops up a cookie consent banner for the billionth time after I already consented because the browser wiped all the persistent user identifiers available to it. For my protection -_- I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bo…

While I agree that we should have legal codes protecting our online and digital rights, I’m convinced that there are enough Bad People on the Internet that we do indeed still need strong technical protections as well.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#292

Post by grafmax » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:04 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #220

josho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics. I 1000% agree we need a digital bill of rights. It pains me every time a “well behaved” website pops up a cookie consent banner for the billionth time after I already consented because the browser wiped all the persistent user identifiers available to it. For my protection -_- I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bo…

The reason is our government and regulators are captured by business concerns which profit from our data. The government in turn views mass surveillance as a powerful tool for social control. Although there are many more people whose privacy is violated by these policies than benefit from them, the rich and powerful minority is more organized in its efforts and thus comes out ahead in the balance of power.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#293

Post by miki123211 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:05 AM UTC

jacobgkau wrote: post #2

> Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena. Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are goi…

They already can.

If they have access to your router and its logs, they can simply check whether your mobile device was in WiFi range at that time.

Sure, mobile devices can be turned off, but at that point, so can routers.

In 99.9% of circumstances, it's a "nothing burger" from a law enforcement perspective, except maybe for detecting actual crime occurring when no residents are home.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#294

Post by scarface_74 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:06 AM UTC

brookst wrote: post #277

scarface_74 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the internet is international and laws are national or even by state. There are 24 states that require ID to view porn sites. The laws are being completely ignored by popular websites that are not based in the US.

Yep. And plenty of US sites ignore international laws about slandering Mohammad, and so on. I’m not sure the lack of a global hegemony is a “problem”.

And another reason you don’t want laws governing the internet is that politicians are dumb. As soon as I heard about the laws I knew this was going to happen.

https://reason.com/2025/01/24/age-verification-laws-meet-vpn...

> ”Google searches for online tools like VPNs have surged in Florida after Pornhub, one of the world's largest adult websites, blocked access to users in the state," CBS News reported earlier this month. "Since the end of November, Google searches for VPNs have surged in the Florida, according to Google Trends. From the week of Dec. 22 - 28 to Dec. 29 - Jan. 4, searches nearly doubled. Since then, the numbers have gone even higher."

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#295

Post by wyager » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:10 AM UTC

josho wrote: post #29

jacobgkau wrote: post #2

> Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena. Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are goi…

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

> The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal.

The technical solution seems strictly preferable

Legal "protections" only protect you up the moment a warrant is issued, if that

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#296

Post by miki123211 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:10 AM UTC

gxs wrote: post #278

dcow wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics. I 1000% agree we need a digital bill of rights. It pains me every time a “well behaved” website pops up a cookie consent banner for the billionth time after I already consented because the browser wiped all the persistent user identifiers available to it. For my protection -_- I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bo…

I’ve been asked at work to build less than savory stuff, here are some general observations, none of which are admittedly an excuse: * you get caught up in the moment, hell bent on solving the problem you don’t really think twice * you don’t want to get that stink on you, you don’t want to be that guy that brings this type of stuff up * you are mindful of the fact that you are being very well compensated to build it…

And sometimes, you don't even know what the feature will even be used for.

Today it's an automatic subtitle generator for people with hearing difficulties. Tomorrow it'll be an AI training data generator. In a year, the NSA will re-purpose it into a mass surveillance tool.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#297

Post by pdonis » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:18 AM UTC

jacobgkau wrote: post #2

> Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena. Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are goi…

> using the provided WiFi AP

Which you can simply not do if you don't trust your ISP not to misuse it. Which is why I never run my ISP's router, I run my own instead.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#298

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:18 AM UTC

josho wrote: post #29

jacobgkau wrote: post #2

> Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena. Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are goi…

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

> The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal.

I expect more than a few commenters here will disagree with you. Some rather vehemently.

To those that do so, I'd encourage you to read the novel Attack Surface by Cory Doctorow. While it's fiction, in the book, Doctorow makes a pretty compelling argument for the notion that when it comes to privacy, we can't win by "out tech'ing" the governments and corporations. We're simply too heavily out-resourced. If I'm interpreting his message correctly, he is saying basically what Josho is saying here: that we have to use the political/legal system to get the privacy protections that we care about enshrined into law and properly enforced.

Now, is that going to be easy? Hell no. But after reading the book I was largely sold on the idea, FWIW. That said, the two approaches aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. But I do believe that those of us who care about privacy should focus more on using our (knowledge|skills|resources) to try to foster change through politics, than on trying to beat "them" with better tech.

YMMV, of course. But if you haven't read the book, at least consider giving it a shot. Probably Doctorow makes the argument better than I can.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#299

Post by pdonis » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:18 AM UTC

josho wrote: post #29

jacobgkau wrote: post #2

> Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena. Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are goi…

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

> The solution here shouldn't be technical

Why not? Just run your own router instead of the one your ISP tries to give you.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#300

Post by dcow » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:20 AM UTC

idiotsecant wrote: post #274

dcow wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics. I 1000% agree we need a digital bill of rights. It pains me every time a “well behaved” website pops up a cookie consent banner for the billionth time after I already consented because the browser wiped all the persistent user identifiers available to it. For my protection -_- I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bo…

What law do you think mandates those annoying cookie popups?

It would be nice if you could argue, “well, just be a good site and don’t use marketing cookies”, but the ePrivacy Directive requires consent for performance and preference cookies too. Perhaps a liberal reading arguably allows classification of certain statistics and preferences functions to be strictly necessary, like “I wouldn’t provide this service without crash reporting because I’d go insane so it’s strictly necessary”, but most lawyers would be ill before advising as much.

https://gdpr.eu/cookies/