Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 329 posts

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#291

Post by pydry »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #281
pydry wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so youre in the sacrifice and die for nothing camp then. >Otherwise what do you do when Russia comes back for another bite The fact that a neutral ukraine isnt enough of a prize to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives capturing. They did give it independence in the first place after all.

They've already invaded twice. You are way more trusting than I am. I mean, I get it. If you are a pacifist, you do you. Repeating Putin's talking points probably isn't going to convince anybody, though. Obviously, Putin has visions of a greater empire. Perhaps you are just intentionally blind to that.

Yeah, they invaded twice and in each case a little diplomacy would have been sufficient to roll back the invasion. Diplomacy which was categorically refused for terrible reasons.

Hey, if you want to fight and die on behalf of your Western empire then Ukraine will be only too happy to have you and every Ukrainian of fighting age about to be thrown on to the front lines will be only too happy to trade places.

But, I get it - it's easy to treat little things like honest diplomacy and other countries' security concerns with complete disregard when you're not the one being thrown on to the front lines to die as a result of it. Only Ukrainians are forced to do that.

>Repeating Putin's talking points probably isn't going to convince anybody

Putin's a terrible human being and so are his supporters but he's not all that different to his western imperialist counterparts and the supporters of their narratives - people like you.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#292

Post by StefanBatory »

StefanBatory wrote: post #45
niffydroid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this has been attributed to pro russian Ukrainians on the far right?

We do know know, there are so many people who would have loved to see Nord Stream blown up. Our foreign minister for example in Poland, thanked USA for doing so :P I for example I'm happy NS2 got blown up, as it means relative safety for us. Germans won't be able to just go on about their business with Russia in the future.

Of course, that was supposed to be - we do not know, not this.

Sorry, that's what I get for writing w/o thinking and I can't edit it now.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#293

Post by mopsi »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #288
geoka9 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, even as the deals Russia offered got steadily worse they were always calibrated to be a better alternative than continuing to fight and lose. They were always calibrated to be refused and there is a reason for that: NATO expansion is a red herring that Russia wants to use as an excuse for the invasion. > There was nothing logical about Ukraine's decision to reject neutrality and to try and set itself up as…

Remind us why a purely defensive alliance lead by a country on the othrr side of a planet needs to be closer and closer to the borders of the country against which that alliance was created?

It neither needs nor wants to be closer, and the long-standing rejection of Ukraine's membership application is a testament to that. Yet every neighbor of Russia is desperate to join it to secure themselves against yet another expansionist dictatorship in Russia.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#294

Post by geoka9 »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #288
geoka9 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, even as the deals Russia offered got steadily worse they were always calibrated to be a better alternative than continuing to fight and lose. They were always calibrated to be refused and there is a reason for that: NATO expansion is a red herring that Russia wants to use as an excuse for the invasion. > There was nothing logical about Ukraine's decision to reject neutrality and to try and set itself up as…

Remind us why a purely defensive alliance lead by a country on the othrr side of a planet needs to be closer and closer to the borders of the country against which that alliance was created?

Because small countries of Europe that don't want to be invaded by Russia seek to join the alliance that was specifically created to prevent such eventuality for its members.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#295

Post by mopsi »

pydry wrote: post #291
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've already invaded twice. You are way more trusting than I am. I mean, I get it. If you are a pacifist, you do you. Repeating Putin's talking points probably isn't going to convince anybody, though. Obviously, Putin has visions of a greater empire. Perhaps you are just intentionally blind to that.

Yeah, they invaded twice and in each case a little diplomacy would have been sufficient to roll back the invasion. Diplomacy which was categorically refused for terrible reasons. Hey, if you want to fight and die on behalf of your Western empire then Ukraine will be only too happy to have you and every Ukrainian of fighting age about to be thrown on to the front lines will be only too happy to trade places. But, I ge…

> Yeah, they invaded twice and in each case a little diplomacy would have been sufficient to roll back the invasion.

That's just a stalling tactic. The very people who built Russian diplomacy and personally mentored figures like the current foreign minister Lavrov have commented that Russia's offers have never been serious, pointing to details such as the fact that the people leading the negotiations are low-level functionaries without any authority to negotiate anything. You don't send errand boys if you're serious about negotiations.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#296

Post by pydry »

geoka9 wrote: post #294
justsomehnguy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remind us why a purely defensive alliance lead by a country on the othrr side of a planet needs to be closer and closer to the borders of the country against which that alliance was created?

Because small countries of Europe that don't want to be invaded by Russia seek to join the alliance that was specifically created to prevent such eventuality for its members.

The alliance exists to attack, not defend.

That's why of the 4 wars it has taken part in in the last 30 years, 4 have been wars of aggression while 0 have been defensive (article 5 was invoked for 9/11 but occupying afghanistan wasnt a defensive move it was an imperial move).

It's a dog eat dog world out there for sure but sometimes the 14 year old boy isnt safer joining the crips for protection from the bloods. Sometimes he's just sacrificed as a pawn in a wider turf war as the crips' promises of protection ring hollow.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#297

Post by mindjiver »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #266
mindjiver wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about a splinter party (BSW) from the main left party (Die Linke) which is a kind of anti-woke- and anti-immigration-party that spouts basically the normal Kremlin propaganda lines about Ukraine. There is of course anti-US sentiment there since is secondary to their main issue, peace at any cost so that Germany can get cheaper energy again. Note that I'm not a German national but I live in Germany (for…

Also having lived in Dresden and speaking some German, I recognize the German grammar affecting your last sentence there. If it’s of interest, a native English speaker would say something like “but I have lived in Germany for nine years” I know I appreciated it when the Germans would correct my German grammar :)

Funny, since German is my third language but I guess it creeps into my second and first languages as well.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#298

Post by pydry »

mopsi wrote: post #295
pydry wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they invaded twice and in each case a little diplomacy would have been sufficient to roll back the invasion. Diplomacy which was categorically refused for terrible reasons. Hey, if you want to fight and die on behalf of your Western empire then Ukraine will be only too happy to have you and every Ukrainian of fighting age about to be thrown on to the front lines will be only too happy to trade places. But, I ge…

> Yeah, they invaded twice and in each case a little diplomacy would have been sufficient to roll back the invasion. That's just a stalling tactic. The very people who built Russian diplomacy and personally mentored figures like the current foreign minister Lavrov have commented that Russia's offers have never been serious, pointing to details such as the fact that the people leading the negotiations are low-level fu…

Diplomacy is always a murky world but in this case there is one and clear stand out example where what you said is true. It was announced that Minsk 2 was purely meant as a stalling tactic to allow re-armament.

Unfortunately for your little theory it was Ukraine and Angela Merkel who admitted this and not Russia.

This was made even more painfully obvious just before that day in Feb 2022 when Russia demanded Ukraine adhere to this multilateral (i.e. also agreed by Europe) agreement theyd already agreed to and Ukraine just point blank refused, preferring to fight.

Russian diplomacy follows a Clausewitzian model (i.e. that you're better off in tbe long run if you are up front about your intentions), unlike the western model where one day you announce talks with the Iranians pledging good faith in your negotiations and the next day you launch a surprise bombing raid, hoping this means you got 'em good.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#299

Post by infecto »

greenavocado wrote: post #216
infecto wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s extremely naive to think the Federal Reserve has lent out the gold and it no longer exists. It’s up there with insider job 9/11 conspiracies. Modern banking and finance, not just in the US, relies on fractional reserves. This is not a movie.

[flagged]

Are you ok? Fort Knox has nothing to do with the federal reserve.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#300

Post by mopsi »

pydry wrote: post #298
mopsi wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, they invaded twice and in each case a little diplomacy would have been sufficient to roll back the invasion. That's just a stalling tactic. The very people who built Russian diplomacy and personally mentored figures like the current foreign minister Lavrov have commented that Russia's offers have never been serious, pointing to details such as the fact that the people leading the negotiations are low-level fu…

Diplomacy is always a murky world but in this case there is one and clear stand out example where what you said is true. It was announced that Minsk 2 was purely meant as a stalling tactic to allow re-armament. Unfortunately for your little theory it was Ukraine and Angela Merkel who admitted this and not Russia. This was made even more painfully obvious just before that day in Feb 2022 when Russia demanded Ukraine a…

These are just stale deflections. Russian diplomacy is indeed stuck in Clausewitzian times: diplomacy is seen as an extension of military strategy and not as a tool for building durable cooperation. This becomes especially apparent when compared to how former great rivals like France and Germany, the UK and Spain, or Sweden and Denmark now conduct their relations with one another.

Sweden and Denmark are some of the best examples of this. Despite centuries of wars, they are now considered inseparable, and their very violent past comes as a surprise to many: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_Denmark_a...

When you put Russia against this, it's abundantly clear how hopelessly outdated present-day Russian diplomacy is; it has much more in common with the distant past than with the modern day.

Post reply on HN