Live data from Hacker News

Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

chomsky.info

291–300 of 389 posts

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#291
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI this decade have not, at least so far, substantially deepened our understanding of our own intelligence and its constitution I would push back on this a little bit. While it has not helped us to understand our own intelligence, it has made me question whether such a thing even exists. Perhaps there are no simple and beautiful natural laws, like those that exists in Physics, that can explain how humans think and…

I think it is important to realize, that we need to understand language on our own terms. The logic of LLMs is not unlike alien technology to us. That being said, the minimalist program of Chomsky lead to nowhere, because just like programming, it found edge case after edge case, reducing it further and further, until there was no program anymore that resembled a real theory. But it is wrong to assume that the big pr…

but we don't have llms that can "produce everything in c++".

We have LLMs that can get some boilerplate right if you use it in a greenfield project, and will repeatedly mess up your code once it grows enough for you to actually need assistance grokking it.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#292
post #178

The level of intellectual engagement with Chomsky's ideas in the comments here is shockingly low. Surely, we are capable of holding these two thoughts: one, that the facility of LLMs is fantastic and useful, and two, that the major breakthroughs of AI this decade have not, at least so far, substantially deepened our understanding of our own intelligence and its constitution. That may change, particularly if the intel…

> AI this decade have not, at least so far, substantially deepened our understanding of our own intelligence and its constitution I would push back on this a little bit. While it has not helped us to understand our own intelligence, it has made me question whether such a thing even exists. Perhaps there are no simple and beautiful natural laws, like those that exists in Physics, that can explain how humans think and…

> Perhaps there are no simple and beautiful natural laws, like those that exists in Physics, that can explain how humans think and make decisions.

Isn't Physics trying to describe the natural world? I'm guessing you are taking two positions here that are causing me confusion with your statement: 1) that our minds can be explained strictly through physical processes, and 2) our minds, including our intelligence, are outside of the domain of Physics.

If you take 1) to be true, then it follows that Physics, at least theoretically, should be able to explain intelligence. It may be intractably hard, like it might be intractably hard to have physics decribe and predict the motions of more than two planetary bodies.

I guess I'm saying that Physical laws ARE natural laws. I think you might be thinking that natural laws refer solely to all that messy, living stuff.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#293
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? He's made significant contributions to political discourse and science.

I think it's safe to say that anyone who voted for Trump disagrees to his contributions.

In Europe he is quite a controversial figure even on the left part of political spectrum- mainly because of his takes on Srebrenica genocide (and recently on the Ukraine war).

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#294

I'm noticing that leftists overwhelmingly toe the same line on AI skepticism, which suggests to me an ideological motivation.

This is a great way to remove any nuance and chance of learning from a conversation. Please don't succumb to black-and-white (or red-and-blue) thinking, it's harmful to your brain.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#296
In my view, there is a major flaw in his argument is his distinction into pure engineering and science:

> We can make a rough distinction between pure engineering and science. There is no sharp boundary, but it’s a useful first approximation. Pure engineering seeks to produce a product that may be of some use. Science seeks understanding. If the topic is human intelligence, or cognitive capacities of other organisms, science seeks understanding of these biological systems.

If you take this approach, of course it follows that we should laugh at Tom Jones.

But a more differentiated approach is to recognize that science also falls into (at least) two categories; the science that we do because it expands our capability into something that we were previously incapable of, and the one that does not. (we typically do a lot more of the former than the latter, for obvious practical reasons)

Of course it is interesting from a historical perspective to understand the seafaring exploits of Polynesians, but as soon as there was a better way of navigating (i.e. by stars or by GPS) the investigation of this matter was relegated to the second type of science, more of a historical kind of investigation. Fundamentally we investigate things in science that are interesting because we believe the understanding we can gain from it can move us forwards somehow.

Could it be interesting to understand how Hamilton was thinking when he came up with imaginary numbers? Sure. Are a lot of mathematicians today concerning themselves with studying this? No, because the frontier has been moved far beyond.*

When you take this view, it´s clear that his statement

> These considerations bring up a minor problem with the current LLM enthusiasm: its total absurdity, as in the hypothetical cases where we recognize it at once. But there are much more serious problems than absurdity.

is not warranted. Consider the following, in his own analogy:

> These considerations bring up a minor problem with the current GPS enthusiasm: its total absurdity, as in the hypothetical cases where we recognize it at ones. But there are much more serious problems than absurdity. One is that GPS systems are designed in such a way that they cannot tell us anything about navigation, planning routes or other aspects of orientation, a matter of principle, irremediable.

* I´m making a simplifying assumption here that we can´t learn anything useful for modern navigation anymore from studying Polynesians or ants; this might well be untrue, but that is also the case for learning something about language from LLMs, which according to Chomsky is apparently impossible and not even up for debate.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#297
>Many biological organisms surpass human cognitive capacities in much deeper ways. The desert ants in my backyard have minuscule brains, but far exceed human navigational capacities, in principle, not just performance. There is no Great Chain of Being with humans at the top.

Chomsky made interesting points regarding the performance of AI with the performance of biological organisms in comparison to human but his conclusion is not correct. We already know that cheetah run faster human and elephant is far stronger than human. Bat can navigate in the dark with echo location and dolphin can hunt in synchronization with high precision coordination in pack to devastating effect compared to silo hunting.

Whether we like or not human is the the top unlike the claim of otherwise by Chomsky. By scientific discovery (understanding) and designing (engineering) by utilizing law of nature, human can and has surpassed all of the cognitive capabilities of these petty animals, and we're mostly responsible for their inevitable demise and extinction. Human now need to collectively and consciously reverse the extinction process of these "superior" cognitive animals in order to preserve these animals for better or worst. No other earth bound creature can do that to us.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#298
post #99

The fact that we have figured out how to translate language into something a computer can "understand" should thrill linguists. Taking a word (token) and abstracting it's "meaning" as a 1,000-dimension vector seems like something that should revolutionize the field of linguistics. A whole new tool for analyzing and understanding the underlying patterns of all language! And there's a fact here that's very hard to disp…

Restricted to linguistics, LLM's supposed lack of understanding should be a non-sequitur. If the question is whether LLMs have formed a coherent ability to parse human languages, the answer is obviously yes. In fact not just human languages, as seen with multimodality the same transformer architecture seems to work well to model and generate anything with inherent structure. I'm surprised that he doesn't mention "uni…

by "parse" I usually assume I get out some sort of AST I can walk and manipulate. LLMs do no such thing. There is no parsing going on.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I guess humans really aren't so special after all" This is a crazy take to me. As compared to what? The machines that we built? Until we discover comparably intelligent life in the universe I think it's fair to say that we are indeed very special.

You know how many old sci-fi settings pictured aliens as bipedal furry animals or lizards? Even to go from that to realistically-intelligent swarms of insects is already difficult. (Of course, there’s plenty of sci-fi where conscious entities manifest themselves as abstract balls of pure energy or the like; except for some reason those balls still think in the same way we do, get assigned the same motivations, someti…

In Star Trek the whole humanoids everywhere thing is an obvious practicality in producing episodes, though.

They spent the whole budget on the salt vampire and never recovered.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#300

There was an interesting debate where Chomsky took a position on intelligence being rooted in symbolic reasoning and Asimov asserted a statistical foundation (ah, that was not intentional ;). LLM designs to date are purely statistical models. A pile, a morass of floating point numbers and their weighted relationships, along with the software and hardware that animates them and the user input and output that makes the…

Perhaps the next question we are asking is "what happens if you give a statistical model symbolic input" and the answer appears to be, you get symbolic output.

Even more strangely, the act of giving a statistical model symbolic input allows it to build a context which then shapes the symbolic output in a way that depends on some level of "understanding" instructions.

We "train" this model on raw symbolic data and it extracts the inherent semantic structure without any human ever embedding in the code anything resembling letters, words, or the like. It's as if Chomsky's elusive universal language is semantic structure itself.

Post reply on HN