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Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

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Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#291

Post by Reason077 »

stuaxo wrote: post #193
dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it wasn't for the UK, which is why we can't have nice things like double decker commuter trains I think bridge heights are the bigger problem here

We have a few lines with decent guages. At almost every election before this version of Labour got in, the Tories would promise all sorts of rail projects then immediately cancel them after the election. One project was a goods "spine" (all projects were "spines" at this point), that invovled improving the loading guage from Southampton upwards. For routes where this happened I don't see why we couldn't upgrade the s…

> "For routes where this happened I don't see why we couldn't upgrade the stations to a bigger loading guage and have double decker trains."

The costs would be high and the benefits negligible. Where more capacity is required, it's typically easier to lengthen existing trains, or run more trains, than to go adapting stations and building new unique double-decker trains that are only going to be compatible with a specific line.

And, as mentioned elsewhere, double-deckers have a big disadvantage in lengthening dwell times (due to less doors per passenger), which could result in slower services.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#292

Post by iggldiggl »

consp wrote: post #40
jabl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is so marginal it doesn't matter, and is certainly not worth the cost. Both the heaviest cargo trains and the fastest passenger trains (ignoring monorails, maglevs etc., just normal style trains running on two steel rails) on the planet run on standard gauge.

It would also make switches and curves larger so it would not be possible in constrained (city) environments already present.

While narrower gauges are somewhat more favourable to tighter curve radii, ultimately the difference is negligible enough that it can be ignored. At the extreme end of the range, curve radii for standard gauge trams can go down into the 10 – 15 m range just the same as metre gauge networks, and for mainline railways curve radii instead are usually limited by vehicle geometry and mostly line speeds (centrifugal forces), which (especially the latter) aren't related to the track gauge.

You're right about switches though – if you keep the rest of the switch geometry (angle, radius) the same (and to some extent you have to if you want to keep existing speeds across switches), the large track gauge alone will make the switch somewhat longer, which at least in complex stations with huge clusters of switches (like e.g. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.1039604,8.6563677,197m/data=...) could potentially cause some headaches.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#293

Post by jcranmer »

vintermann wrote: post #221
kibwen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The anti-Russian policies in the Baltics are dumb, they provide Putin with a good point to use in his propaganda This is dangerously naive. Propagandists like Putin don't need real grievances, they're happy to invent grievances and brainwash the population into believing them. In light of this fact, there's zero downside and nonzero upside to decouple from Russia (at least for any state which intends to remain inde…

What you're really saying here, is that Russians are fundamentally different people than you, because they fall for any dumb propaganda, whereas you don't. Or maybe you accept that you are human too, vulnerable to the same thing, and maybe you are the brainwashed one, but you don't care? Going down either of these roads ends you up with the neonazis in the long run (and yes, Russia has a lot of them too). So no, it's…

> What you're really saying here, is that Russians are fundamentally different people than you, because they fall for any dumb propaganda, whereas you don't.

No, I don't read that at all. There's plenty of Russian propaganda that Westerners have fallen for hook, line, and sinker, chief among them the idea that all Russian speakers are actually Russian and want to be a part of the Russia.

The point is that the propagandists don't need to base their propaganda on truth. A salient historical example here is actually World War II: the Germans tried to provoke Poland into overreacting and causing a major incident in Danzig to justify their invasion of Poland. The Poles refused to play ball, so when the appointed hour came, the Germans made up some atrocity and used it as the basis of the declaration of war, faking the evidence early in the invasion. Given that Russia has already used a similar pretext regarding Russian speakers in Ukraine, it's not a surprise that the Baltics are nervous about Russia doing the exact some thing with regards to Russian speakers in their territories.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#294

Post by kibwen »

FpUser wrote: post #223
kibwen wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, a country can pursue many things simultaneously, which is often more generally effective than pursuing a single thing to the detriment of all others, thanks to diminishing returns.

>"...than pursuing a single thing..." Where did I say about single thing: "...weapons and other more effective preventive measures..." Looking from the other angle - should Russia attack it'll trigger article 5. Russia can not win conventional war with NATO. It is just laughable. They're not that suicidal. And if they are it'll escalate to nuclear and then the railroad will be your last worry.

> Russia can not win conventional war with NATO

Without the US Navy, NATO loses any war in the Baltic Sea. If Putin thinks the US won't respect Article 5, then he'll attack anyway. And if the US Navy is annihilated in a war against China, he'll attack anyway. Finland needs all the separation from Russia it can get.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#295

Post by lazide »

DocTomoe wrote: post #237
sbuttgereit wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand.... "Unification to standard gauge on May 31 – June 1, 1886 [United States] In 1886, the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their tracks. After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two days beginning on Monday, May 31,…

[flagged]

'86, in the south? Let's not be racist and assume the labor was Chinese - surely it was 95% recently freed black slaves paid almost nothing + 'free' prison labor. (/s, a little).

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#296

Post by pmyteh »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #73
Oarch wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We absolutely can. They'd just be deeply uncomfortable.

> They'd just be deeply uncomfortable. I rode these kind of trains in multiple countries and continents and there's nothing uncomfortable about them. Why do you say that?

Because of the tight loading gauge in Britain, trying to cram two decks in would make it very small. It's been tried (once[0]) and they weren't able to make it fully double-decker, quick to load/unload, or especially comfortable.

I agree that they're fine in countries with larger bridges and tunnels -- Amtrak's Superliners are palatial in size -- but not for us. (Except probably for the Channel Tunnel rail link, which is built to French gauge).

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#298

Post by pydry »

mazurnification wrote: post #234
pydry wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear of foreign invasion is also why the Soviet Union invaded during the Winter War ("Greater Finland" irredentism was a thing, and St Petersburg was militarily exposed). Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. Fear is why the Soviet Union also signed a pact with the Nazis and invaded Ukraine. It's easy to justify anything with fear.

No, fear is not why Soviet Union allayed with Nazis. Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was agreement in which Nazis and Soviets divided central/eastern Europe between them. They even had join parade after conquering Poland in Brest (Brześć). And yes, they ware allied.

They were fighting Japan at the time, were unable to fight a war on two fronts and Britain had at that point chosen to follow a strategy of appeasement towards the Nazis.

And your idea is that they had zero reason to fear invasion from the west? Even though that is precisely what happened just a few years later?

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#299

Post by lazide »

iggldiggl wrote: post #245
anticensor wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the acceptable tolerance is -4mm+7mm.

Where? Finland specifically, or elsewhere? Both my local tram system in Germany as well as DB as the national infrastructure operator in Germany have construction tolerances of only +/- 2 mm. Maintenance tolerances on the other hand can be quite a bit larger, at least in the plus direction (on the order of 15/20/25 mm).

Sure, but thats Germans. I'm surprised it isn't specc'd in 10ths.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#300

Post by metadat »

sbuttgereit wrote: post #175
vesinisa wrote: post #14

Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606 My comments: The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed. > "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will…

On the other hand.... "Unification to standard gauge on May 31 – June 1, 1886 [United States] In 1886, the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their tracks. After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two days beginning on Monday, May 31,…

Corresponding discussion:

The Days They Changed the Gauge (1966) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8371773 (2014, 15 comments)

And a related discussion:

Why BART uses a nonstandard broad gauge - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32031131 (2022, 253 comments)

The BART discussion was where I first learned about the North American 2-day gauge change. A truly inspiring feat for so many engineers to come together across such a large amount of land area to Make It Happen.

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