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Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#291

Post by crazygringo »

caseyy wrote: post #289
crazygringo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the part where app developers take away the Apple payment option because that way they can make it much harder to do refunds, cancel subscriptions, etc. That decreases trust. Period. You're claiming this is about adding choices, but it's not. App developers will be removing the choice for consumers to pay via Apple. Saying it's my choice to then not use the app is disingenuous. When a good option is re…

Please re-read the final paragraph of my comment.

I don't need to, that's what I was already responding to. Please re-read my comment.

I really didn't think it necessary to reply to your sentence that "If that is not provided, but the customers don't trust other payment methods, the app won't make money" -- because it's so clearly relying on a false premise.

But since you need it further explained: trust in payment methods isn't binary. I prefer Apple payments but still use my credit card for everything else where it isn't available. If people can't use a better payment option, they'll fall back to a worse one. They usually won't just forego using the app entirely. Just look at the success of Adobe Creative Cloud despite its horrendous billing practices.

Again, that's what's wrong with your argument around choice. More choice leads to worse outcomes when you allow the best choice to be removed.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#292

Post by foolswisdom »

pc86 wrote: post #180
pc86 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Upcoming criminal trial" implies that there is an upcoming criminal trial, which at this point there is not. The judge referred a criminal complaint for contempt against that witness. The office that received it (presumably some sort of investigative division of the court or law enforcement entity) has to investigate, decide if they want to refer it to a prosecutor, and the prosecutor then has to decide if they want…

Ran out of edit time but this is feature, not a bug, and it's not really something ideological like a lot of this kind of stuff can be. You don't want courts to be able to decide on Monday that you're going to trial on Tuesday. You don't want courts (or any other entity of the judiciary or law enforcement) to decide that you're going to trial independently and the next step is your trial. Regardless of your political…

True, but at the same time, "Justice delayed is justice denied"[1]. An excessively slow justice system means that you need substantially more resources (money, and time living under the uncertainty of the outcome) to deal with it, which is part of why the threat of court action against you from a large corporation (or another entity with deep pockets) is so concerning. I know someone who was in court defending against a civil suit for ten years, and the fact that someone is litigious and able to sue is a much larger threat than it should be.

Sure, there's checks and balances, and those are good, but it's ridiculous when we allow cases to drag on and then normalize it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_den...>

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#293

Post by layer8 »

saurik wrote: post #284
layer8 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no expert, but it may be the case that if you place an app on, say, the EU app store, you’re technically doing business in the EU, not the US, and are therefore subject to EU law, not US law. Wasn’t that the case with the DSA requirements? https://techcrunch.com/2025/02/18/apple-purges-apps-without-...

Even if I accept Apple's definition that such a developer is directly doing business in the EU, the injunction applies to "Apple, Inc. and its officers, agents, servants, employees, and any person in active concert or participation with them", which certainly includes the direction they provide to the people they hire to operate their storefronts in other countries (particularly so as this is, as I stated, a centrall…

Eh, I don’t think it works that way. Apple’s EU subsidiaries are separate legal entities, and everything that happens on the EU app store is not an activity that occurs within the US and would be subject to US federal law. Even Tim Sweeney implicitly acknowledged this: https://www.macrumors.com/2025/04/30/epic-games-apple-peace-...

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#294

Post by 999900000999 »

m-s-y wrote: post #221
999900000999 wrote: post #162

Most customers are probably going to assume your a con artist if you don't use the official IAP. When I use mobile apps I like being able to do all my spending in one place. I want to be able to go to subscriptions and cancel everything I don't need at once. Just yesterday I had to manually stop a PayPal payment renewal since the merchants cancellation process doesn't work ( 2 emails to customer service and I get the…

> Most customers are probably going to assume your a con artist if you don't use the official IAP. and this is apple’s reasoning for why their strict control over the app store is warranted. they want it to be seen as trusted and infallible and that can’t happen if 3rd parties have free reign. for me, the correct way forward isn’t external referrals. it’s allowing multiple app stores on devices. if you don't want the…

>for me, the correct way forward isn’t external referrals. it’s allowing multiple app stores on devices. if you don't want the “untrusted” 3rd party store with more lax dev rules than Apple’s, just don’t use them.

Exactly. Or better yet just let me install whatever binaries I want. Make it clear I'm responsible for what I install though.

From the perspective of the average consumer, it's much easier for Apple to handle the whole flow. If I want to cancel my subscription via the app store it take 30 seconds, not a bunch of unanswered emails to customer support.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#295

Post by Mindwipe »

orasis wrote: post #242
amluto wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? Apple collected a lot of money in the last year doing this. I wonder if someone will try to force them to refund it all.

There have already been class action lawsuits against both Apple and Google that have paid out to developers so who knows.

A class action lawsuit from other developers is inevitable, at least for the time period where Apple took the money after the judgement.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#296

Post by saurik »

layer8 wrote: post #293
saurik wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if I accept Apple's definition that such a developer is directly doing business in the EU, the injunction applies to "Apple, Inc. and its officers, agents, servants, employees, and any person in active concert or participation with them", which certainly includes the direction they provide to the people they hire to operate their storefronts in other countries (particularly so as this is, as I stated, a centrall…

Eh, I don’t think it works that way. Apple’s EU subsidiaries are separate legal entities, and everything that happens on the EU app store is not an activity that occurs within the US and would be subject to US federal law. Even Tim Sweeney implicitly acknowledged this: https://www.macrumors.com/2025/04/30/epic-games-apple-peace-...

The EU app store--even as a separate legal entity--doesn't operate independently: it takes its marching orders from Apple, Inc., and Apple, Inc. has been required to not do this thing to developers, not merely directly but indirectly even by persons (which includes corporations) they are merely "in active concert or participation with". The EU app store doesn't even have a separate submission portal or a separate approval process, much less any autonomy in its operation: it is certainly covered by this injunction.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#297

Post by arghwhat »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #123
arghwhat wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bloated and overcomplicated are design issues, not technology issues. Plenty of native apps are bloated and overcomplicated. Making good apps is hard.

> Bloated and overcomplicated are design issues, not technology issues. No, it's very much a technology issue. The overhead just for shipping an entire webbrowser with your app is insane. Building a decent UI in HTML/CSS which were never designed for that purpose, is an absolute disaster. HTML and CSS are for formatting text documents, not for designing user interfaces. There is a reason that there is a framework-of-…

You're mixing things up. A web app does not ship a web browser, the user brings their own. You're thinking of electron apps.

When using web apps, the browser you bring is no different than, say, having to install Qt. It's a static entity shared by all apps, with each app "just" being anywhere between kilobytes and tens of megabytes.

Electron brings a browser, but even then what makes the app bloated is still design Theres a baseline amount of bulk included, but it's mostly inconsequential to the actual app behavior - similar to how a standard system has god knows how many libraries and functions available but mostly unusued.

You could easily have an app written with PyQt that's way more sluggish, bloated and complicated despite using a fraction of the disk space. Shitty apps, that's the issue.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#298

Post by Mindwipe »

crazygringo wrote: post #104
UncleMeat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to only use apps that use apple payments if you are concerned about this.

But then there are apps you were able to use previously that you will no longer be able to trust. That's the problem -- it's taking away trust. You're not free to continue using Apple's payment system as a consumer.

I already don't trust Apple's payment systems.

This is unambiguously a win.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#299

Post by Mindwipe »

daveidol wrote: post #130
crazygringo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then there are apps you were able to use previously that you will no longer be able to trust. That's the problem -- it's taking away trust. You're not free to continue using Apple's payment system as a consumer.

I’m pretty sure this ruling just lets developers add an external payment option (and charge less for it). Apple’s IAP is still a requirement , so you’ll still have that option if it’s worth the 30% premium to you (it definitely is not for me).

Nope.

Developers are free to include no payment mechanism in the app that would involve an iAP, and tell people to click to go to the website (which can open an in app browser window).

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#300

Post by jajuuka »

dfxm12 wrote: post #219
itchyjunk wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this true with collectable toys? My adult friends sure seem to be addicted to purchasing Pokemon cards. They talk about thousands of dollars spent when I am curious about numbers.

Yes, and? ETA: Exploiting adult whales is bad too, if that's the angle you were going.

Is it exploiting if they participate under their own volition?

Is Auto Zone exploiting people who like working on their cars?

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