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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#291

Post by BalinKing »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #265
jasode wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Joy” is not found in a day. People enjoy doing things they are good at. There's got to be more to it than your simplified breakdown. My first exposure to computer programming was fun and instantly addictive . There was no struggle to learn coding. Same childhood experience for guitar. Nobody was around to push me. There was no need for "discipline to practice". It was simply practice-was-natural-thing-to-do because…

I find tremendous joy in playing the piano today. That mostly started when I was about 20, ~15 years after I started playing the piano. It had its moments during the first 15 years of my life, but it was more of a competitive activity than an entertaining one. Conservatively, every fun hour had about 50 shitty hours when I was a serious piano student. Now it's 100% fun.

This is exactly the same for me—I grew up playing the piano for basically my entire childhood, but it was always a chore. I dropped it once I went to college and figured I'd never pick it up back up, but then I decided on a whim to learn a song I found online. But b/c now it's no longer just for the sake of lessons, it's become a hobby that I really enjoy in its own right (and indeed, all the forced practice growing up has greatly expanded the range of songs that I'm able to learn now).

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#292

Post by Loic »

bethekidyouwant wrote: post #266
Loic wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But kids are going to have setbacks, they will reach a plateau in their craft (music, painting, art, sport, ...). You need also as a good parent to help your kids go through, to not give up, because even joy to do is not always enough. This is the hard part. From my modest experience of being a ski/snowboard instructor and trying to raise 3 boys (now 12, 16 and 18).

why does a child need to break through a plateau at anything? Of my five sample size of five, expose them and support them, some things can’t even hook you until your brain grows enough .. The musical one is in a band now the nerdy one likes inhaling solder. I did force both boys to Hockey but just to have passable skills so that he can enjoy that all that comes with the sport as an adult

The current trend, at least in Germany, is that as soon as a kid says "I do not want anymore.", this is normal to stop. With that, the kids do not have the experience that it can be hard, but going through can bring something.

Resilience, capacity to go through ups and downs, etc. are things you train by being exposed to it. If your life is only fun and joy as kid, the day you are hit hard as an adult, you have no training.

But, this is my very personal point of view, education is very personal and very context specific, every family is different (country, culture, education, etc.) and in every family education is difficult from one kid to another. I am not trying to tell you how to educate your kids.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#294

Post by margalabargala »

hkpack wrote: post #273
kif wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a parent myself, but something I’ve seen happen with an American family I know, is that they push their kids way too much to learn and do as many things as possible. They have their music lessons, their many clubs at school, several physical activities such as soccer, tennis, taekwondo. At some point you have to stop and wonder whether you’re taking their childhood away. These kids barely have any free time.…

Every parent is fighting an uphill battle against the technology now. You either structure the day in such a way that there is literally no time for anything outside of activities, or you just observe the kid gets sucked into the screens with less and less will to do anything else.

That is a false dichotomy.

If not at a club/activity, why does the child have unrestricted access to screens?

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#295

Post by Magma7404 »

hilbert42 wrote: post #171
kleene_op wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was exactly my sentiment. My parents pushed me hard to do piano when I was around 10-12. After a year that went pretty well I was starting to get lazy and put very little work and investment into preparing for the next lesson. They still had me play piano a full year until they eventually gave up and bitterly told me what a waste my resignation felt to them. 20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can…

"20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years." One of the tragedies of being young is that few have the insight to realize that the 'boring' stuff parents and teachers are forcing us to learn will actually benefit us and that eventually we'll be very thankful that they did. My parents nagged me all the time about studying and ev…

> the 'boring' stuff parents and teachers are forcing us to learn will actually benefit us

My parents forced me to play the piano for more than 10 years because they were obsessed with the piano, and because they had a piano. I hated every second of doing that in order to please them, and I never got higher than beginner level because it was a torture for me. Being a beginner for 10 years should be considered as abuse and it messed me up big time, especially for my daily confidence.

30 years later, I still hate that fucking thing and I understand that they fucked up due to their delusion. They deny everything when we talk about it though.

Sometimes you have to listen to the kids and understand what they want do do, and accept it instead of feeding your Munchausen by proxy syndrome. All I wanted was a computer, even the cheapest computer ever would have been acceptable. Nowadays, I write C++ for a living and I still hate the piano. If only anyone listened to me back then... My hatred for that instrument is a mystery for some people, and some people think that "wisdom gained through experience is almost impossible."

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#296

Post by hkpack »

margalabargala wrote: post #294
hkpack wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every parent is fighting an uphill battle against the technology now. You either structure the day in such a way that there is literally no time for anything outside of activities, or you just observe the kid gets sucked into the screens with less and less will to do anything else.

That is a false dichotomy. If not at a club/activity, why does the child have unrestricted access to screens?

Have you personally tried to keep a teen away from a screen? If you did with a success, I would really like to hear your story and what has worked for you.

Looking at my kids friends / classmates, almost all of the parents just gave up, with the exception of a small group that is still trying with the discussed approach.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#297

Post by -__---____-ZXyw »

Timwi wrote: post #47
-__---____-ZXyw wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you come across https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Teenage_Liberation_Handboo... I read it (as a non-child), and a lot of my certainties about what young brains are and are not capable of got joyfully exploded. I'm not linking it to you proscriptively, or with a specific suggestion or riposte in mind whatsoever - you just might be interested in it. School is very successful at convincing kids (and former kids) of…

> School is very successful at convincing kids (and former kids) of two things: Well, and thirdly, that your worth as a person is determined by your results in graded examinations, and by extension, your salary or some other numerical rating decided by someone else.

Absolutely, I think that's the other huge one. Thanks for chiming in to complete the thought!

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#299

Post by BeFlatXIII »

blitzar wrote: post #145
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

> they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate A valuable life skill if you want to ever have a job or get paid.

Similarly, it teaches the value of putting forth the minimum effort to appear to be doing the work. Putting forth more effort rewards one with more work.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#300

Post by Magma7404 »

cpursley wrote: post #191
kstenerud wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents forced me to play piano, right up until I told them that I'll destroy our piano if they don't lay off, and any consequences they could think of would not stop me (I was normally an obedient child, but enough was enough). That got their attention. 30 years later I picked up classical guitar and loved it! Do I thank my parents for forcing the piano on me? Hell no.

Like I commented in another post, piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar (and appreciating that genre of music). Very few guitar players can even recognize note names on a staff. You’re not going to get far with classical guitar without it.

> piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar

Absolutely not. If you hate something and don't learn anything more that entry level, it won't give you any foundation, only hatred and bitterness. Also the piano and the guitar are very different beasts that you cannot compare at all.

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