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4o Image Generation

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Re: 4o Image Generation

#291
post #268
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> truly generative UI, where the model produces the next frame of the app Please sir step away from the keyboard now! That is an absurd proposition and I hope I never get to use an app that dreams of the next frame. Apps are buggy as they are, I don't need every single action to be interpreted by LLM. An existing example of this is that AI Minecraft demo and it's a literal nightmare.

This argument could be made for every level of abstraction we've added to software so far... yet here we are commenting about it from our buggy apps!

Yeah, but the abstractions have been useful so far. The main advantage of our current buggy apps is that if it is buggy today, it will be exactly as buggy tomorrow. Conversely, if it is not currently buggy, it will behave the same way tomorrow.

I don't want an app that either works or does not work depending on the RNG seed, prompt and even data that's fed to it.

That's even ignoring all the absurd computing power that would be required.

Re: 4o Image Generation

#292
post #98

To quote myself from a comment on sora: Iterations are the missing link. With ChatGPT, you can iteratively improve text (e.g., "make it shorter," "mention xyz"). However, for pictures (and video), this functionality is not yet available. If you could prompt iteratively (e.g., "generate a red car in the sunset," "make it a muscle car," "place it on a hill," "show it from the side so the sun shines through the windshie…

DALLE-3 with ChatGPT has been able to approximate this for a while now by internally locking the seed down as you make adjustments. It's not perfect by any means but can be more convenient than manual inpainting.

Ditto Instruct Pix2Pix https://www.timothybrooks.com/instruct-pix2pix

Re: 4o Image Generation

#293
post #40

Edit: Please ignore. They hadn't rolled the new model out to my account yet. The announcement blog post is a bit misleading saying you can try it today. -- Comparison with Leonardo.Ai. ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/share/67e2fb21-a06c-8008-b297-07681dddee... ChatGPT again (direct one shot): https://chatgpt.com/share/67e2fc44-ecc8-8008-a40f-e1368d306e... ChatGPT again (using word "photorealistic instead of "photo"): ht…

Yeah, its just not good enough. The big labs are way behind what the image focused labs are putting out. Flux and Midjourney are running laps around these guys

Flux most definitely .

Midjourney hasn't been SOTA for nearly a year now. It struggles to follow even marginally complex prompts from an adherence perspective.

Re: 4o Image Generation

#294
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's important about this new type of image generation that's happening with tokens rather than with diffusion, is that this is effectively reasoning in pixel space. I do not think that this is correct. Prior to this release, 4o would generate images by calling out to a fully external model (DALL-E). After this release, 4o generates images by calling out to a multi-modal model that was trained alongside it. You c…

You're incorrect. 4o was not trained on knowledge of itself so literally can't tell you that. What 4o is doing isn't even new either, Gemini 2.0 has the same capability.

Can you provide a link or screenshot that directly backs this up?

Re: 4o Image Generation

#295
post #288

Visual internet content is completely over. Pack it up

For starters, this completely blocks generation of anything remotely related to copy-protected IPs, which may actually be a saving grace for some creatives. There's a lot of demand for fanart of existing characters, so until this type of model can be run locally, the legal blocks in place actually give artists some space to play in where they don't have to compete with this. At least for a short while.

Re: 4o Image Generation

#296
post #162
post #104

What's important about this new type of image generation that's happening with tokens rather than with diffusion, is that this is effectively reasoning in pixel space. Example: Ask it to draw a notepad with an empty tic-tac-toe, then tell it to make the first move, then you make a move, and so on. You can also do very impressive information-conserving translations, such as changing the drawing style, but also stuff l…

> What's important about this new type of image generation that's happening with tokens rather than with diffusion That sounds really interesting. Are there any write-ups how exactly this works?

There are a few different approaches. Meta documents at least one approach quite well in one of their llama papers.

The general gist is that you have some kind of adapter layers/model that can take an image and encode it into tokens. You then train the model on a dataset that has interleaved text and images. Could be webpages, where images occur in-between blocks of text, chat logs where people send text messages and images back and forth, etc.

The LLM gets trained more-or-less like normal, predicting next token probabilities with minor adjustments for the image tokens depending on the exact architecture. Some approaches have the image generation be a separate "path" through the LLM, where a lot of weights are shared but some image token specific weights are activated. Some approaches do just next token prediction, others have the LLM predict the entire image at once.

As for encoding-decoding, some research has used things as simple as Stable Diffusion's VAE to encode the image, split up the output, and do a simple projection into token space. Others have used raw pixels. But I think the more common approach is to have a dedicated model trained at the same time that learns to encode and decode images to and from token space.

For the latter approach, this can be a simple model, or it can be a diffusion model. For encoding you do something like a ViT. For decoding you train a diffusion model conditioned on the tokens, throughout the training of the LLM.

For the diffusion approach, you'd usually do post-training on the diffusion decoder to shrink down the number of diffusion steps needed.

The real crutch of these models is the dataset. Pretraining on the internet is not bad, since there's often good correlation between the text and the images. But there's not really good instruction datasets for this. Like, "here's an image, draw it like a comic book" type stuff. Given OpenAI's approach in the past, they may have just bruteforced the dataset using lots of human workers. That seems to be the most likely approach anyway, since no public vision models are quite good enough to do extensive RL against.

And as for OpenAI's architecture here, we can only speculate. The "loading from top to be from a blurry image" is either a direct result of their architecture or a gimmick to slow down requests. If the former, it means they are able to get a low resolution version of the image quickly, and then slowly generate the higher resolution "in order." Since it's top-to-bottom that implies token-by-token decoding. My _guess_ is that the LLM's image token predictions are only "good enough." So they have a small, quick decoder take those and generate a very low resolution base image. Then they run a stronger decoding model, likely a token-by-token diffusion model. It takes as condition the image tokens and the low resolution image, and diffuses the first patch of the image. Then it takes as condition the same plus the decoded patch, and diffuses the next patch. And so forth.

A mixture of approaches like that allows the LLM to be truly multi-modal without the image tokens being too expensive, and the token-by-token diffusion approach helps offset memory cost of diffusing the whole image.

I don't recall if I've seen token-by-token diffusion in a published paper, but it's feasible and is the best guess I have given the information we can see.

EDIT: I should note, I've been "fooled" in the past by OpenAI's API. When o* models first came out, they all behaved as if the output were generated "all at once." There was no streaming, and in the chat client the response would just show up once reasoning was done. This led me to believe they were doing an approach where the reasoning model would generate a response and refine it as it reasoned. But that's clearly not the case, since they enabled streaming :P So take my guesses with a huge grain of salt.

Re: 4o Image Generation

#297
post #57

> Introducing 4o Image Generation: [...] our most advanced image generator yet Then google: > Gemini 2.5: Our most intelligent AI model > Introducing Gemini 2.0 | Our most capable AI model yet I could go on forever. I hope this trend dies and apple starts using something effective so all the other companies can start copying a new lexicon.

This is my latest and most advanced comment yet.

Re: 4o Image Generation

#298
post #272

Still failing the wine glass test, https://imgur.com/a/aS8e0UY

It was easy to fix though, I just said "all the way full" and it got it on the next try. Which makes sense, a full pour is actually "overfull" given normal standards.

Re: 4o Image Generation

#300
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Models are famously good at understanding themselves.

I hope you're joking. Sometimes they don't even know which company developed them. E.g. DeepSeek was claiming it was developed by OpenAI.

I hope you’re joking :)
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