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France rejects backdoor mandate

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Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#291

Post by palata »

roenxi wrote: post #147
Spivak wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure some of them do but encryption is pretty unusual as a lock that police can't break. If a judge orders a search of your house and the incriminating evidence is in a safe they will break it open if you refuse to open it for them. Governments aren't exactly happy that for digital assets there's ready made mass-market systems where the response to any search warrant will be to pound sand. When law enforcement te…

> Governments aren't exactly happy that for digital assets there's ready made mass-market systems where the response to any search warrant will be to pound sand. Which is to say they understand the situation perfectly and are acting with a firm intellectual grasp of what is going on. The issue isn't that they don't understand encryption, it is that they reject citizens having any sort of power to resist the state. Wh…

> it is that they reject citizens having any sort of power to resist the state

But by doing that, they make it easier for adversaries to spy on their own citizen, which is a national security issue.

That's why it sounds like ignorance to me: I understand that they really want a backdoor just for themselves "because they are the good guys" and "for national security", but they don't understand that if they have a backdoor, then their adversaries will eventually have it, too.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#292

Post by palata »

usrnm wrote: post #167
tonyhart7 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"These aren't dumb people." they are, most tech worker didn't know how cryptography works under the hood and yet you expect politician to know it??? nah its just intelligence agency make a request to parlement of some shit

Are you actually trying to say that understanding cryptography is a prerequisite for intelligence?

In the context of a discussion where the two propositions are "they take bad decisions because they don't understand" or "they take those decisions by malice", I think the parent is trying to say "they most probably don't understand cryptography, given that most tech workers don't either and those politicians are less into tech than tech workers".

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#293

Post by vladms »

makeitdouble wrote: post #290
vladms wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I checked the list of the fines ( https://www.cnil.fr/fr/les-sanctions-prononcees-par-la-cnil ). They are definitely doing good things, but they do not seem to be very active to prevent companies to gather large databases if they can give some reason (ex: facebook / linkedin / etc.). And I am fine if your opinion is that less data collection is better everywhere, but this idea should be applied to everybody (governme…

Linkedin has been fined for their use of personal data for ad purposes (albeit through the RGPD framework after the CNIL passed the case to them): https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2024/10/24/donnees-per... Facebook is also targeted under the RGPD, we've been amply seeing the news. The CNIL doesn't need to be doing everything either. There is and will be no silver bullet completely stopping companies from buildin…

Registration as an expat in the Netherlands is much smoother than in France, for things like taxes, health, pension stuff, municipality stuff, etc. (not to mention at the time I did in NL I did not know the language and I know well French). You basically register in one place and lots of things are pulled from there when needed by other branch of government.

In France at almost each new authority I interacted with I needed to provide again the same information, while for all intents and purposes the government has it already (just that in another database).

My impression is that lot of effort is wasted due to duplication (including verification, updating, lack of cross referencing) and not sure why (if the case is that "we have N databases because people can't get together to agree on one", that would make some sense ...)

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#294

Post by palata »

whatshisface wrote: post #16
palata wrote: post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is before blaming politician's ignorance, considering that to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate. The impossible promise of backdoors that France can enter but no other country, organized criminal syndicate or petty government-employed stalker can find is only one impossible promise among the many we can hear fr…

I think it is a valid point: politicians try to please their voters, and the voters don't know anything about how encryption works.

If you tell your voters: "I will force those tech people to develop encryption that can be accessed by the good guys but not by the bad guys", the average voter will say "yeah, that sounds reasonable".

I am frustrated that the politicians don't understand that they are making it worse for everybody, but that's probably a consequence of their voters not understanding it either. That's always the problem with complicated issues (e.g. climate change or covid). Voters typically vote without having a basic understanding of the topic.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#295

Post by palata »

Nextgrid wrote: post #58
hartator wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. They would argue about the damages drugs do. I think they know what they are doing. Digital privacy has no lobby outside of EEF. We don…

The "war" on drugs is what brings all of the violence and crime associated with drugs, not the drugs themselves. But it finances the police industrial complex and so many people would lose out (or be forced to focus on actual crimes rather than people consensually trading plants or chemicals) that it will never happen.

Hmm...

The "war on drugs" probably brings violence associated with drugs, but drugs in general bring harm (when someone becomes an addict or dies because of an overdose, it does harm to the relatives). Nobody would care about drugs if it didn't.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#296

Post by palata »

imoverclocked wrote: post #132
noduerme wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> given that the US have become hostile to Europe I'd like to comfort you that this is not true for the majority of Americans. We are having a hard time wrapping our heads around what our new government is doing.

It kinda doesn’t matter; Individuals aren’t making foreign policy decisions day-by-day, Republicans leaders are. Until we effect change in our government, we are hostile to most of our allies.

> we are hostile to most of our allies

One bad news (for everybody) is that I believe a lot of citizen of those "allied" countries don't see the US as allies anymore. The US are now seen as this unstable "partner" that threatens becoming an enemy (e.g. by invading those ex-allies militarily) and may well become an enemy.

And the feeling is getting worse everyday.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#297

Post by palata »

noduerme wrote: post #130
palata wrote: post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

>> given that the US have become hostile to Europe I'd like to comfort you that this is not true for the majority of Americans. We are having a hard time wrapping our heads around what our new government is doing.

Yeah, it's good to mention. Still I believe that from the outside, in practice it doesn't matter much: if Trump gives the order to invade an ex-ally, who is to know if the US would do it or not? To the outside it is a risk, and a country making that kind of threats probably does not count as an "ally".

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#298

Post by palata »

pembrook wrote: post #199
palata wrote: post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

> it is already a problem that most companies use US services, given that the US have become hostile to Europe. Risking a potential flame war here but I think it’s important to cool down hysterical rhetoric whenever it’s pushed. The US has not become hostile to Europe, and it’s quite silly to say this in contrast to, say, a certain country next door that is currently invading a European country. The US is in the mids…

> This is not hostility, but growing indifference.

Among others, the US is threatening to invade and annex ex-allies using militarily force. This is the definition of "hostility", and again this is only one example.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#299

Post by palata »

tw04 wrote: post #241
palata wrote: post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

> given that the US have become hostile to Europe That’s more than a bit of an overstatement. One faction in the US government has started being less loyal to Europe. Most Americans consider Europe to still be our closest allies and friends. Furthermore the US businesses are not stupid and have shown they will stand up to government pressure around data sovereignty. Anything less will drive both US and global custome…

> Most Americans consider Europe to still be our closest allies and friends.

Maybe, yes. Do you know how many Europeans now consider that the US are not allies anymore? And how many take the threats of invading them seriously? Allies don't threaten to invade.

> Furthermore the US businesses are not stupid

The oligarchs of BigTech have clearly bent the knee. It would be irrational to trust them.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#300

Post by palata »

bboygravity wrote: post #171
palata wrote: post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

"the US have become hostile to Europe." 1. I don't believe that anything changed in recent months/years other than the US repeating the statement that maybe EU should take care of its own defense. Not exactly a new sign of "becoming hostile" IMO. 2. If this would even be true then they have always been hostile to Europe and only just recently started becoming honest and open about it (but again, I dont see any sign o…

> Not exactly a new sign of "becoming hostile" IMO.

It feels like you missed the hostile actions. There are many, but let's just mention the fact that the US repeatedly threatened to invade militarily.

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