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Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

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Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#291

Post by originalvichy »

jasonkester wrote: post #284
iamthemonster wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for an oil and gas company. It has been specifically stated by my company that they are seeking support for hydrogen as a fuel because it adds value to their gas reserves - natural gas is roughly 75% hydrogen on a molar basis. The idea is to stimulate demand for "green-ish" hydrogen (that is by grid-connected electrolysis); once demand for the hydrogen is there, it can be supplied by blue hydrogen. The O&G com…

Can you define your hydrogen colors for us? It sounds like you have something interesting to say, but I can’t parse what it is out of your company’s jargon.

These are quite obvious for anyone who has been following energy tech at a surface level.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#292

Post by jimnotgym »

How much power does it take to charge a bus in a reasonable amount of time?

I heard 100kw. If I have 100 buses charging overnight at 100kw I guess I need 10Mw grid connection? Is that an easy thing to get to a city bus depot in the US. In the UK I believe that would require moving to a location with a HV line and building a sub-station.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#293

Post by D_Alex »

jasonkester wrote: post #284
iamthemonster wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for an oil and gas company. It has been specifically stated by my company that they are seeking support for hydrogen as a fuel because it adds value to their gas reserves - natural gas is roughly 75% hydrogen on a molar basis. The idea is to stimulate demand for "green-ish" hydrogen (that is by grid-connected electrolysis); once demand for the hydrogen is there, it can be supplied by blue hydrogen. The O&G com…

Can you define your hydrogen colors for us? It sounds like you have something interesting to say, but I can’t parse what it is out of your company’s jargon.

"Blue hydrogen" is commonly used for hydrogen produced from natural gas. If it is produced by steam reforming (most common), then the associated CO2 emissions are worse than if you just burn the natural gas directly.

"Green hydrogen" is usually hydrogen produced from water by electrolysis, using electricity from non-CO2 source, e.g. wind or electricity.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#294

Post by originalvichy »

belorn wrote: post #277
xbmcuser wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current US administrations moves against renewables should make you realize how powerful the oil gas lobby is. They got some pushback from local politicians so were slowed down but the way they started they were looking to end all wind and solar for a false promise of nuclear tomorrow.

The last decades' worth of German administrations (and EU countries in general) removed nuclear on the promise of a cheap grid made from green hydrogen and renewables. What they delivered was a EU grid dependent on imported natural gas and a record high ~€400 billions energy subsidies. It is hard to see whose promise of a bright future seems most realistic.

Germany is not the same as other countries. They have a culturally different view towards nuclear power.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#295

Post by jimnotgym »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #273
numpad0 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen vehicles are EVs too. They don't run H2 through a piston engine, it goes through a catalytic converter that generates electricity, aka Fuel Cell. Toyota FC stack costs ~$11k, about the same if not cheaper than a 100kWh worth of Li-ion cells.

And the number of hydrogen powered vehicles sold year on year is currently decreasing. As are the number of places to fill them up in the UK at least.

Yes, because government subsidies switched to electric cars.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#296

Post by jimnotgym »

defrost wrote: post #288
jimnotgym wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are we going to drive earth moving machinery then? Stick with diesel?

The greatest tonnages are dug out with bench mining excavators. These work 24/7/365 round the clock to fill trucks from bench faces and empty into trains. An area such as the Pilbara region moves a billion tonne of raw material a year and ships most of that. These excavators are electric with cables that drag behind them .. they move very slowly across bench faces and then move back across the face again, it's not li…

Very interesting, but it is a niche specific case that doesn't answer the question at all.

Imagine a tractor in a field. What is the solution for that?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#297

Post by krisoft »

jasonkester wrote: post #284
iamthemonster wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for an oil and gas company. It has been specifically stated by my company that they are seeking support for hydrogen as a fuel because it adds value to their gas reserves - natural gas is roughly 75% hydrogen on a molar basis. The idea is to stimulate demand for "green-ish" hydrogen (that is by grid-connected electrolysis); once demand for the hydrogen is there, it can be supplied by blue hydrogen. The O&G com…

Can you define your hydrogen colors for us? It sounds like you have something interesting to say, but I can’t parse what it is out of your company’s jargon.

Blue hydrogen is produced from natural gas.

Green hydrogen is produced from electrolysis of water where the energy is comming from a renevable source. (Imagine solar panels which are directly connected to an electrolysis plant.)

“Green-ish” hydrogen is produced from electrolysis of water where the energy is comming from the grid. (And thus as green as your grid is.)

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#298

Post by defrost »

jimnotgym wrote: post #296
defrost wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The greatest tonnages are dug out with bench mining excavators. These work 24/7/365 round the clock to fill trucks from bench faces and empty into trains. An area such as the Pilbara region moves a billion tonne of raw material a year and ships most of that. These excavators are electric with cables that drag behind them .. they move very slowly across bench faces and then move back across the face again, it's not li…

Very interesting, but it is a niche specific case that doesn't answer the question at all. Imagine a tractor in a field. What is the solution for that?

A billion tonnes per annum is niche ?

What's the tonnage the tractor moves per annum?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#299

Post by jasonkester »

krisoft wrote: post #297
jasonkester wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define your hydrogen colors for us? It sounds like you have something interesting to say, but I can’t parse what it is out of your company’s jargon.

Blue hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Green hydrogen is produced from electrolysis of water where the energy is comming from a renevable source. (Imagine solar panels which are directly connected to an electrolysis plant.) “Green-ish” hydrogen is produced from electrolysis of water where the energy is comming from the grid. (And thus as green as your grid is.)

Thanks. Any idea what “grey” would mean in this context?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#300

Post by navane »

pjscott wrote: post #136
neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

"trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources" sounds very close to what op claims. For them, the goal is to get aboard, not to get to a destination.
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