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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#291

Post by kelipso »

herculity275 wrote: post #206
jisnsm wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine the very same thing being said if the USA had pulled out of the War on Terror. B-but they have WMD! The NYT said so!

It really sucks that "Saddam has WMDs" broke an entire generation of Americans into knee-jerk contrarianism regarding any global conflict US is involved in. What's the "WMD" equivalent here - what do you think the media is lying to you about? That there's an ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is something all involved parties acknowledge.

There is absolutely no requirement that the US has to get involved in every regional conflict in the world. Let the Ukrainians and Russians deal with their mess. There are plenty of other regional conflicts we ignore.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#292

Post by therealpygon »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #278
bradhe wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing to see Russia win the Cold War—one we didn’t even know we were in. Their propaganda network is so strong that it took 3 weeks to go from “Russia is the enemy” to “eh, we have other problems” amongst the folks who…subscribe accordingly. Absolute masterclass in projecting power in the digital age.

US spends trillion in vietname,iraq,afghan etc while people can't afford housing,healthcare and living paycheck to paycheck its hard to care for other people when your basic needs is not fullfill

Only those who are incapable of reasoning would think that will change by electing the people who defend corporations abilities to underpay, overcharge for healthcare, and to not pay taxes.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#293

Post by kelipso »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #276
rayiner wrote: post #243

It seems like Ukraine is insisting on a “security guarantee.” Can someone explain how the U.S. providing a security guarantee wouldn’t increase the risk of american boots on the ground in Ukraine?

An actual lasting peace deal requires some sort of security guarantee, else it's not really a "peace deal", but rather something more like a capitulation. If US political leadership didn't have at least some solution for security in mind to begin with, then they wouldn't have been negotiating in good faith. That said, Security Guarantees don't necessarily directly mean boots on the ground, certainly not straight away…

> though they really would like an American backstop.

It's not a really would like. In all of their speeches by key politicians, European boots on the ground is conditional on US backstop. So it's not happening without US support.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#294

Post by Kim_Bruning »

rayiner wrote: post #284
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An actual lasting peace deal requires some sort of security guarantee, else it's not really a "peace deal", but rather something more like a capitulation. If US political leadership didn't have at least some solution for security in mind to begin with, then they wouldn't have been negotiating in good faith. That said, Security Guarantees don't necessarily directly mean boots on the ground, certainly not straight away…

That makes it seem like a security guarantee would risk deeper US involvement, as eventually happened with Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq I. It seems to me that your logic would make the Iraq War quite defensible. Iraq had already invaded Kuwait. We had already guaranteed Kuwait’s security, so we would’ve had to send troops if Saddam invaded again. So if the CIA was correct that Saddam was rearming, there was a logic to de…

You're right, it really depends on what the security guarantees are, how they're stated, and whether they're credible.

As an example of a case that has worked, the mutual security guarantees within NATO have prevented WWIII so far. (knock on wood)

Obviously, we should be trying to go for something more like the latter.

Alternately, of course, no security guarantees, and both sides continue to fight.

China is already closely watching how the west responds to Ukraine, with potential implications for Taiwan. This increases the likelihood that American security commitments/requirements will eventually be tested more directly.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#295

Post by actionfromafar »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #283
tonyhart7 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US spends trillion in vietname,iraq,afghan etc while people can't afford housing,healthcare and living paycheck to paycheck its hard to care for other people when your basic needs is not fullfill

Thank you. This is what people with privilege don't get. There are concentric circles of giving a fuck: first in the center is yourself, then your family, then your friends, then your community, then your city, then your country, then other countries on the planet. It's impossible to get people to care about the outermost circle when their inner circles are not satisfied, so they won't be happy to see their elected o…

Caveat: in the Republican US those concentric circles begin if you make $360k or more.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#296

Post by kelipso »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #269
rayiner wrote: post #243

It seems like Ukraine is insisting on a “security guarantee.” Can someone explain how the U.S. providing a security guarantee wouldn’t increase the risk of american boots on the ground in Ukraine?

They just want the US to keep their word on promises already made. Is that so unreasonable? They gave up their nukes for it.

The nukes were never under Ukraine control or possession. It's like saying Turkey has nukes, they don't, they are US nukes.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#298

Post by actionfromafar »

ratg13 wrote: post #215
bwb wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are already drafting an end to sanctions, which is unbelievable.

Tarriff other countries and then establish a free trade agreement with Russia to boost their economy. One wonders if they will make American packaging for their products, or just sell the Russian labeled products straight on US shelves.

What products? Caviar and crude?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#299

Post by lukashoff »

inglor_cz wrote: post #185
lukashoff wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am shocked by this myself, but facts are facts. There's also a great social net, free education + student allowances, and plenty of work. I have got no clue what the original poster of the main comment meant by broken economy. Absolute lies and disinformation coming from the ex-allies of ours.

People can do a lot of amazing stuff if their hands aren't bound. I remember reading a German's enterpreneurs lament about wanting to lay a single electrical cable between his two nearby buildings. The paperwork demanded by German authorities dragged for half a year. He said that a similar work in Poland was papered through in two weeks. Or, as a friend of mine in Prague quipped: "We want to build traffic lights. We…

Agree. The reforms of regulations are needed as much as ever right now. Let's hope for the best that our people will wake up to this and we will be able to withstand the oncoming crisis.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#300

Post by maxerickson »

rayiner wrote: post #264
mehphp wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s insisting on something that the U.S. already agreed to… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

From my reading, that says we agreed not to invade Ukraine, not that we agreed to put american boots on the ground to defend Ukraine.

Does "nuclear weapons" attach to the first half of the or in section 4? Seems they wrote it poorly...

"victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used"

You are also engaged in some sophistry, where you are acting as if the hypothetical obligation you are discussing is the only possible obligation. Selling aging weapons stock is pretty clearly assistance, and it isn't exactly boots on the ground.

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