Earlier quoted context omitted.
Parsing IR and lowering it is not the reason why compiling Swift is slow.
What is the reason Swift compile times are slow?
Mostly type checking and name lookup
Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
291–300 of 300 posts
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
.net core is one of the best ways to write linux backend applications.
this, because msft spent years and many $$$ to build an open-source ecosystem. apple hasn't done that yet, so I'm not sure why anyone would trust them
Amazing that you comment that on an announcement that is one large effort of many that Apple have been doing to build an open-source ecosystem over many years...
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#293I believe that this long game of Swift being "good for everything" but "better for Apple platforms" will be detrimental to the language. This does not help the language nor seems to bring more people to the ecosystem. Competitors seems to have a combination of: - Being more open-source - Have more contributors - Have a narrower scope Maybe they should consider open sourcing all the tooling (like Xcode) otherwise the…
I don't get this reaction. Apple: here, we're open-sourcing this previously closed-source Apple-specific thing that made Swift better on Apple platforms. We're moving the Apple stuff into a plugin so Windows and Linux can be equal peers to Apple in the new system. We've implemented preliminary support for Windows & Linux and plan to continue work to bring them up to parity. Hacker News: I believe that this long game…
I'm a bit confused about the "don't trust Apple" sentiment here.
Swift has been working seamlessly with Linux and Visual Studio Code for years now. You might be surprised to learn this, just like this guy was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTP5c4NqA8k&t=5484s
Swift is compatible with WASM and embedded systems. It has a well-defined concurrency standard, and as a compiler, it's been tested with massive codebases worldwide.
The community is incredibly supportive (Ted Kremenek's team is super active, attending community conferences and supporting the Server Side Workgroup). They also have an open swift-evolution process that mostly works.
Xcode not being open-sourced? Not a big deal. It's an older codebase optimized for different use cases. Their approach is to break Swift down into smaller, focused components (Package Manager, LSP server, a formatter, etc.)
JetBrains didn't open-source their IDEs either, and people don't complain about it. So, it's the same story, but it's better since you don't have any historical issues like "Oracle JVM" lurking around, causing trouble for the community.
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
They don't embrace Open Source, that's the problem. I don't even have to invoke the Halloween Documents to erode faith in FAANG as an Open Source steward, half this thread retched at the idea of using Swift out of principle. Apple is welcome to head down the same road they're going if they think it's working out for Swift. Developers aren't going to magically warm to it any more than they trusted C# unless Apple make…
Just like any other big corps, for every big corp you might think of, I can provide an anti-Open Source example from one of their business units. Lets play this game?
Go ahead. Free Software has no obligation to satisfy the criteria of FAANG's business units, I'd actually find it quite funny to hear the litany of complaints you've compiled for a group of people that barely knows you exist.
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get this reaction. Apple: here, we're open-sourcing this previously closed-source Apple-specific thing that made Swift better on Apple platforms. We're moving the Apple stuff into a plugin so Windows and Linux can be equal peers to Apple in the new system. We've implemented preliminary support for Windows & Linux and plan to continue work to bring them up to parity. Hacker News: I believe that this long game…
I'm a bit confused about the "don't trust Apple" sentiment here. Swift has been working seamlessly with Linux and Visual Studio Code for years now. You might be surprised to learn this, just like this guy was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTP5c4NqA8k&t=5484s Swift is compatible with WASM and embedded systems. It has a well-defined concurrency standard, and as a compiler, it's been tested with massive codebases worl…
> I'm a bit confused about the "don't trust Apple" sentiment here.
Let me help you out; replace "Apple" with "Microsoft" and it will make a lot of sense suddenly.
The Open Source community has heard all this before. We've seen Sun Microsystems "generously" publish their Java spec to the public, we've seen Microsoft "give" their community C#. In the end, it's always more trouble than it's worth to cooperate with these language stewards and someone (either the business or community) ends up getting burned. I don't think many developers look at Swift with optimism that it won't end in the same Dotnet/Mono nightmare we've seen in the past.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Apple has invested heavily in a language that, like C#, has a bunch of incredible features. Unfortunately they have yet to invest in the developer relations requisite for making such a language popular. Lord only knows that I'm not wasting my time to do Apple's work for them just to get a cross-platform app to compile with upstream LLVM and Clang. I could use any other language - nobody is going to commit to an ecosystem that treats them as a second-class citizen.
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
This has been my experience for a long time. Swift is nice but why would I waste my time working on a language that is too tied to the Apple platform even if it's open-source when we have more universal scripting languages like Python, or languages like Kotlin that are compiled but have more support (because I trust JetBrains way more than Apple at the moment), or languages that are most strict like Rust but have mor…
Can only speak for myself, but I’d love to be able to use Swift elsewhere so I don’t need to drag around a JVM and all the things that come with it (Kotlin) or have to wrestle with Rust’s sematics and disinclination towards old style imperative desktop UI development. Swift isn't perfect of course, but it’s the closest I’ve come to a language feeling “comfy”.
I was using Swift before. Currently learning Rust. Want to use it for cross-platform UI, and I'm stuggling with exactly what you describe there.
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also have a dim view of Combine and Swift's shitty observation regime, but what does its concurrency have to do with it?
Swift Concurrency as a feature set includes async/await and async for, which solve a large part of Combine's same problem with better safety and less setup/teardown. These days Combine is still useful, specifically for multiple observers and several cases of adapting to older event publishing sources.
Combine is for setting up observers to changes, whereas Concurrency is for async operations. I don't see the relationship.
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#298[dead]
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
Was it originally BSD-licensed, or did it start out as the MS Public Source License or whatever it was called? We could go back and check on Codeplex… oh wait.
As a sibling poster updated it was some bastardized shared source license that never caught on. Thank goodness MS got over their allergy to open source licenses, as they seem to prefer MIT nowadays for their releases. My apologies for misremembering the details and being snarky. Humble pie eaten and enjoyed. :)
No worries, and no humble pie required. Peace, good happiness.
Re: Apple is open sourcing Swift Build
#300Swift is a really cool language. But one thing that blows my mind is that if you ever encounter an "index out of range" error, the (massive) error message that you get doesn't tell you anything about where this error occurred... no line number... no nothing... let a = [1] print(a[1]) Is all you have to do to reproduce the error. The error looks something like that https://pastebin.com/MQV82SaR And gives you no useful…
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