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Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#291

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I'm going to head this off right now: This was between the pilots of the American Airlines flight and the Blackhawk, and the ATC at Reagan. Short of the controllers being literally understaffed, which I assume is not the case, the focus of this investigation should be what the sincere hell happened in the air there. This was a wholly preventable incident, hell this should have not happened period. Something likely ve…

Yeah, it's just a mountain of coherent circumstantial evidence at this point. We can infer that liquidation of leadership and oversight in the agencies responsible for the safety of air travel might distract and strain remaining operational staff, but we don't know for a fact yet that that's the case. Maybe we'll find that all relevant pilots, air traffic controllers, maintenance people, etc were all completely insulated from and oblivious to the active public campaign to eliminate their roles including the emails they would have received on Tuesday from the US Govt Office of Personnel Management [0].

I really don't see a way to eliminate Trump's chaos as at least a partial cause, and it could only be ruled out if the investigators are cognizant of political context.

[0] https://www.opm.gov/fork

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what was going on with Syria, sounds real bad, but your claim about the administration having clear plans they're executing from day 1 is clearly false. This is sourced reporting, not analysis: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/01/omb-whi...

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#293
post #264
post #250

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This is wild to listen to. A) this is a busy atc channel and it's amazing how much complexity is coordinated over noisy radio. B) within minutes of the accident happening (at 11:48) the ATC controller is calmly asking helicopters in the air if they can assist in search rescue operations asking, if they have search lights and direction them. This is whilst diverting and grounding flights.

> over noisy radio I've been told the noise on the recordings is always a lot worse than in practice due to the location of the recording antenna not being ideal. I have no idea if this is correct or not. Maybe someone can enlighten this.

Yes, having tried to listen to ATC with an SDR— the public recordings are made from antenna that placed near the airport, while the official recordings are made from the feeds that the ATC is listening to— and those antenna have their lobes pointed toward the sky.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#294
post #105

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No. We use some deterministic automation on the backend for helping with traffic management and rerouting flight paths, but the communication with aircraft is mostly done via voice. Everything happens too fast to insert a keyboard in the middle (*), and voice recognition would be too error prone for something safety critical. (* CPDLC does allow ATC to send texts to/from larger aircraft, but this is only used for thi…

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It also has to listen, and accept complex requests and demands from pilots over a scratchy and occasionally garbled radio link.

Have you ever gotten frustrated because Alexa/Siri/etc completely misinterpreted a voice request? Or looked at the quality of YouTube subtitles? That’s still lots of inaccuracy with AI speech recognition. There’s no room for that up there.

And yes, the non-deterministic nature is a huge problem given this is the very definition of a life-critical system.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of ai are you talking about? The non deterministic black box LLMs we have now?

The kind that could land an atomic-powered vehicle on Mars, eight light-minutes from human contact? In 2012? It's utterly ridiculous to expect humans to do this job for much longer. It's what computers are for .

Oh you mean the kind that has no conflicting traffic in 0.5 to 2.5 AU?

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, San Carlos Airport (KSQL, near San Francisco) is going ATC-zero on February 1st. The tower will be unstaffed. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/CASMATEO/bulletins/... "The FAA has awarded a new contract for air traffic services at SQL to Robinson Aviation (RVA). However, the contract does not include locality pay to account for the high cost of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. As a result, RVA’…

> The tower will be unstaffed. Doesn't that just mean there will be no taxi control? My understanding is that ATC isn't in the tower. The tower staff just give clearances for take-off and directions on which runway to land/take-off. In radio clips, you can hear ATC hand-off a plane to tower.

The "ground" controller manages taxing around the "movement areas" (i.e. taxiways) on the ground. This notably does not include the runways. And it depends how much of the actual ramp and parking area they control (those are sometimes non-movement area and it's the pilots job to not hit anything).

The "tower" controller manages the actual runways, and the airspace within several miles of the airport laterally and a few thousand feet vertically (varying at each airport). This includes sequencing all the planes that want to take off of land there, and everybody maneuvering around that immediate area.

For the large airports that mostly big airliner flights, that sequencing is largely worked out by the approach controllers dozens or hundreds of miles ahead of time. So there's a steady stream of planes following standardized approach procedures at just the right distance apart.

Outside of the ~30 busiest airports in the country though, there is also a lot of general aviation in small planes. They want to transition through that airspace, or do a dozen laps around the "pattern" to practice landings, etc. Even at fairly major airports, there's plenty of GA activity. For example at Burbank, Ontario, John Wayne, Long Beach, San Jose, Oakland, etc in California. It's only really SFO and LAX where that doesn't really happen, because they set fees to shoo the peons away.

SQL is a small but very busy airport that is almost exclusively GA. There are several flight schools there with multiple planes each, and it's sandwiched in complicated airspace between SFO, SJC, OAK, and open bay.

The tower at this kind of airport is doing a delicate dance keeping multiple planes buzzing around in a rectangular pattern all day every day. Some of which are faster than others. Less frequently a larger much faster plane wants to get in or out and they're getting handed off from approach. Helicopters are doing tours and wanting to cross through. And a lot of the people flying are students that are new at this, don't know how to talk or listen on the radio right yet, make mistakes following directions, etc.

With the tower closed, all those people have to coordinate on a party-line radio with each other about where they are, what they're doing, etc to hopefully not hit anyone. So yeah... it's possible, but it's going to be a mess, and that's why tiny airports like this with virtually no commercial passenger service have a tower.

Also if you're leaving the immediate area, someone at the airport (ground, tower, or "clearance delivery", depending) normally will coordinate putting your destination (for visual/VFR flight following) or full route (for IFR/instruemnt) into the ATC systems before you takeoff so that you can talk to the approach controllers once you leave and they can provide you traffic advisories, etc.

With nobody at the tower to do that, you have to "cold call" approach once already airborne. Or if your route allows, just not get flight following at all (and then ATC has no way to reach you). So SQL tower closing will also add to the workload for the SFO/OAK approach area.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some regulations are written and blood but some regulations are written to cover someone's ass and the two should not be treated equally. We shouldn't give equal respect to the Federal Aviation Regulations and to OPM's Qualification Standards for Federal Jobs; doing so deligitamizes the importance of the former.

FAA is however an agency that regularly tangles with SpaceX and could be seen as slowing them down. Seems like a conflict of interest for the guy tasked with government efficiency.

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#298
post #57
post #10

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> In addition, the White House has put a hiring freeze in place, prohibiting the replacement of open government positions or the creation of new ones while the administration evaluates reductions in the workforce. The White House plans to release a memorandum with further guidance within 90 days. This has drawn criticism from lawmakers as the FAA has been ramping up controller hiring. https://www.ainonline.com/aviati…

Is there an actual reason why the control tower work can't be fully automated? For train control lights we almost don't rely on human operators anywhere.

Weather. How often do weather events change the entire traffic flow into a train station?

I’ve heard ATC swap landing and takeoff directions in the space of 10 minutes because of weather

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#300
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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It also has to listen, and accept complex requests and demands from pilots over a scratchy and occasionally garbled radio link. Have you ever gotten frustrated because Alexa/Siri/etc completely misinterpreted a voice request? Or looked at the quality of YouTube subtitles? That’s still lots of inaccuracy with AI speech recognition. There’s no room for that up there. And yes, the non-deterministic nature is a huge prob…

I know, but these things can be trained for. Siri/Alexa is 2010 tech, not 2025. And the big benefit is that there's a pretty limited vocabulary and phraseology in aviation.

I don't see ATC being replaced yet but in the future perhaps something more automated could happen including more visual instructions.

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