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Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

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Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#291

Post by ninetyninenine »

mmaunder wrote: post #225

The amount of vitriol in these comments is the really surprising data. I've seen the same on Twitter. I can only put it down to the financial pain DeepSeek inflicted on many US retail investors by wiping almost $700 billion off NVidia's stock price. I think a lot of folks didn't see it coming and it hurt them right where it matters most: In the wallet. The anger out there is very real.

Also American pride. China is on track to outpace the US in technical, military and economic dominance.

A lot of people want to poke at Chinese weakness wherever it’s exposed because Americans are used to being the best and also unconscious racism. When Japan was about to overtake the US the US pulled some similar moves and that is partly what’s responsible for japans current economic funk. It’s unlikely these moves will work on China.

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#292

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

mmaunder wrote: post #225

The amount of vitriol in these comments is the really surprising data. I've seen the same on Twitter. I can only put it down to the financial pain DeepSeek inflicted on many US retail investors by wiping almost $700 billion off NVidia's stock price. I think a lot of folks didn't see it coming and it hurt them right where it matters most: In the wallet. The anger out there is very real.

In my opinion, it is not vitriol as much as unfiltered recognition of the significant issues and risks that have become a part of DeepSeek’s story: the Chinese government injecting propaganda into LLMs, the threat of apps from adversaries in US app stores (like TikTok and DeepSeek), the disregard for user privacy (their database was open to the Internet with no authentication and no encryption of data), the misleading claim of quoting the cost of a single final run (which amounts to market manipulation of nvidia stock), the theft of OpenAI’s assets that they’ve not admitted to, the likely evasion of sanctions, and so on.

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#293

Post by mlinsey »

m00x wrote: post #245
mmaunder wrote: post #225

The amount of vitriol in these comments is the really surprising data. I've seen the same on Twitter. I can only put it down to the financial pain DeepSeek inflicted on many US retail investors by wiping almost $700 billion off NVidia's stock price. I think a lot of folks didn't see it coming and it hurt them right where it matters most: In the wallet. The anger out there is very real.

The hit on NVidia's stock price makes no sense to me. DeepSeek uses H100s and H800s. They'll likely have reasons to buy more now, and America will want to compete even harder, buying more chips. American companies are still way ahead as well, but they're just getting more competition. This will be healthy.

People saw how much cheaper it was to train DeepSeek v3, and assumed this reduced NVidia's TAM. I think this doesn't make much sense.

a) For inference, cheaper and faster compute will increase total inference spend, because the end-user products will work better and people will use them more.

b) For training, the big labs will continue to spend because we have yet to see diminishing returns to scale - in fact, we have in the past year unlocked a new dimension to scale up training-time compute - doing more RL after pre-training to improve reasoning capabilities. Since current SOTA models are not yet smart enough for all the tasks people want to use them for, this means that any efficiency gains will be used to further improve performance. In the current competitive environment, even with DeepSeek's work, it's near-impossible to imagine OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, or Meta deciding to cut the compute budget for training their next model by an order of magnitude. They will still incorporate DeepSeek's techniques into their next model, but use them to squeeze even more performance out of the compute they have, and will keep purchasing as much compute as NVidia will sell them. Expect this trend to continue until there are no more returns to scale anymore.

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#294

Post by Aunche »

gleenn wrote: post #261
m00x wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hit on NVidia's stock price makes no sense to me. DeepSeek uses H100s and H800s. They'll likely have reasons to buy more now, and America will want to compete even harder, buying more chips. American companies are still way ahead as well, but they're just getting more competition. This will be healthy.

The stock price had assumptions baked in about the number of units expected to be sold. DeepSeek cut that hardware estimate by as much as 45x. That is that absolute obvious correlation between that model being very efficient to train and NVDA dropping 18%.

Eli Whitney thought he could reduce slavery by making cotton processing 45x more efficient...

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#295

Post by smallerize »

razster wrote: post #104
dotancohen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many non-gamers have hardware capable of running such a model locally - never mind the skills. For most people, bash is not a tool for interacting with the computer, it is how they express their frustration with the computer (sometimes leaving damaged keyboards).

I have DeepSeek-R1 1.5b running on a Raspberry Pi 5. I have DS-R1 14b Q6 running on my old AM4 Ryzen with a AMD GPU, without issues. My primary workstation is running 32B Q8 and without issues. And it's simple!

That's not the DeepSeek R1 model that they're offering via the API on these servers. That's a Qwen model that's been fine-tuned on output from the big R1 model.

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#296

Post by to11mtm »

mmaunder wrote: post #225

The amount of vitriol in these comments is the really surprising data. I've seen the same on Twitter. I can only put it down to the financial pain DeepSeek inflicted on many US retail investors by wiping almost $700 billion off NVidia's stock price. I think a lot of folks didn't see it coming and it hurt them right where it matters most: In the wallet. The anger out there is very real.

Every intelligent colleague is an interesting mix of 'sour but intrigued'

Personally, I know I've lost a lot of street cred amongst certain work circles in recent history as far as my thoughts of 'shops should pursue local LLM solutions[0]' and the '$6000 4-8 tokens/second local LLM box' post making the rounds [1] hopefully gives orgs a better idea of what LLMs can do if we keep them from being 100% SAASlike in structure.

I think a big litmus test for some orgs in near future, is whether they keep 'buying ChatGPT' or instead find a good way to quickly customize or at least properly deploy such models.

[0] - I mean, for starters, a locally hosted LLM resolves a LOT of concerns around infosec....

[1] - Very thankful a colleague shared that with me...

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#297

Post by aoanevdus »

gleenn wrote: post #261
m00x wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hit on NVidia's stock price makes no sense to me. DeepSeek uses H100s and H800s. They'll likely have reasons to buy more now, and America will want to compete even harder, buying more chips. American companies are still way ahead as well, but they're just getting more competition. This will be healthy.

The stock price had assumptions baked in about the number of units expected to be sold. DeepSeek cut that hardware estimate by as much as 45x. That is that absolute obvious correlation between that model being very efficient to train and NVDA dropping 18%.

I don’t get it. The labs have regularly made improvements that dramatically lower the cost of training an equal-performing model. When they do this, they also train a larger model with even higher performance. This time, DeepSeek did the first part but didn’t do the second. Now every lab in the world will throw their compute into the effort to replicate and beat DeepSeek’s model with larger scale. It’s not like everyone is just going to say “well I guess AI is smart enough now, no point improving it anymore!” and stop building bigger training clusters.

If anything, r1 makes even more GPU demand likely, since it mitigated or at least delayed the risk AI hit a dead end (in which case, ceasing development may actually make sense).

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#298

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

sho_hn wrote: post #255
karim79 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. I also enjoy the "China be stealin' ur data and personal info" angle. As if the incumbents haven't already done that, and are still doing it, as their core business practices. This whole thing should be an eye-opener to most people. To ask an honest question, who gives a crap if a Chinese company manages to grab data that many of the usual Silicon Valley suspects have had all along and have been incrementally upd…

> How is this a "threat". Given how closely major US tech companies are now affiliated and partnered with the US Federal government, arguably the direct potential threat from them to US citizens may well be higher than from across a very big pond. People trot out "I'd rather our guys spy on me than them" a lot, but that's putting a lot of faith in your local government. Conversely, who do you think has more to fear f…

DeepSeek is more affiliated and partnered with the CCP than US companies are with the US government. Their LLM includes literal government mandated censorship and propaganda. Their CEO met with the premier the other day. And obviously the CCP will be using this tech for military applications very soon. But Chinese citizens themselves will also be further controlled and suppressed through the extensive use of AI and robotics by their own ruling dictatorship.

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#299

Post by EGreg »

sampullman wrote: post #286
gleenn wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stock price had assumptions baked in about the number of units expected to be sold. DeepSeek cut that hardware estimate by as much as 45x. That is that absolute obvious correlation between that model being very efficient to train and NVDA dropping 18%.

It still doesn't make sense to me. If the money for training is still there, wouldn't companies that can afford it use the efficiency gains and also scale up models? Unless AI is a bubble, and it pops, I can't see the demand for compute going down.

I think AI is a bubble. The amount of compute for inference is vastly overestimated, because a lot of caching is coming. It's driven by maniacal statements like Sam Altman's insistence that we must spend Trillions on compute, to achieve AGI, and it's more important than anything else.

Project Stargate is some large fraction of that, and of course Softbank is no stranger to losing money on overestimating demand (for example, WeWork). To be fair, China has a lot of overestimation of demand too (for example Evergrande). The other is that rapid competition leads to overinvestment by all parties.

https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/sam-altman-seeks-trillions-of-do...

Re: Exposed DeepSeek database leaking sensitive information, including chat history

#300

Post by MattGaiser »

Twirrim wrote: post #280
cptskippy wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that cloud providers make it easy to deploy infrastructure without much thought. You need skilled domain specific IT Architects working together to ensure that an organization's cloud presence is efficient and secure. That discipline and rigor is often dismissed or underappreciated because it forces you to slow down and decreases agility. Some organizations have some form of Enterprise Architecture gro…

> I would say most organizations are completely devoid of that type of supervision and oversight. It's unfortunately far too counter to "move fast and break stuff" that startup space tends to be enamored of, because they tend to want you to do things safely and try to avoid a "Front page of the New York Times" type of security event.

Has being on the front page of the NYT for a software bug or leak killed any companies?

I think they correctly believe security failures are at most a short term PR problem as far as the market is concerned.

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