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Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

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Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#291

Post by kvgr »

rob74 wrote: post #209
manvillej wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments pay to keep food at the cheapest point possible to ensure stability. a fed population doesn't kill their governments. Agriculture is not a regular industry; its a national security issue Farming is not a profitable endeavor. There would be a lot less financial advisors in the world otherwise. A carbon tax will either drive up prices or reduce suppliers, increasing prices. Reducing farmland will require mo…

So, what are you proposing? Just do nothing about climate change, as we have done before, and have worse social consequences in the near future rather than now? Denmark is more at risk from rising sea levels than other countries ( https://cphpost.dk/2023-02-17/news/rising-sea-levels-threate... ), so they want to do something about it.

The food needs to be produced somewhere. If denmark exports, then the food will be missing somewhere. So you do not fix "climate change". You only fix local effects of agriculture. I am not saying it is good or bad. But it def makes denmark poorer.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#292

Post by space_oddity »

fifticon wrote: post #282

another point is: since WW2, denmark has one of the highest, if not THE highest, percentages of area under agriculture. During WW2, we temporarily allowed agriculture on very poor farmland. It was meant to cease after the war, but our strong farmer lobbyists kept extending the permission.. So it is not about giving up 'good farm land', it is about stopping abusive agriculture which is only possible with extreme chemi…

Interesting historical perspective

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#293

Post by madmask »

perlgeek wrote: post #260
madmask wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what should not happen. Meat is great, especially when grass fed.

... unless the "meat" being grass-fed is actually cows, which produce lots of methane. Not so good for climate change, at least if done at scale. It's never that easy as "Meat is great".

I can’t believe this is a real problem. Refineries are bombed and stay on fire for days, some places in the world light on fire rubbish all the time, plenty of inefficiencies in heating, transportation, etc.. and the problem is.. cow farts.. yes sure

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#294

Post by shafyy »

valval wrote: post #284
perlgeek wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... unless the "meat" being grass-fed is actually cows, which produce lots of methane. Not so good for climate change, at least if done at scale. It's never that easy as "Meat is great".

Cow farts being harmful for the environment is the silliest hoax I see repeated over and over. Spending two minutes reading about the biogenic carbon cycle destroys this misconception.

I read about the Biogenic Carbon Cycle on the UC Davis website:

"As a by-product of consuming cellulose, cattle belch out methane, there-by returning that carbon sequestered by plants back into the atmosphere. After about ten years, that methane is broken down and converted back to CO2. Once converted to CO2, plants can again perform photosynthesis and fix that carbon back into cellulose. From here, cattle can eat the plants and the cycle begins once again. In essence, the methane belched from cattle is not adding new carbon to the atmosphere. Rather it is part of the natural cycling of carbon through the biogenic carbon cycle."

According to that logic, burning fossil fuels also is not harmful for the environment, because the CO2 eventually gets consumed by plants.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#297

Post by roenxi »

addcommitpush wrote: post #268
geysersam wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how will converting farmland to forest Farming is very carbon emission intensive if the farmland is reclaimed wetland. Converting the farmland to forest and stopping draining (making it more wet again) can definitely reduce carbon emissions significantly. > Denmark has no ability to impact global CO2 emissions This is such a tiresome and logically hollow argument. Denmark has the ability to reduce a fraction of the…

Note that China has no ability to impact global CO2 emissions either. Let’s split China population in k Denmark-sized groups, plus one smaller-than-Denmark reminder. None of the k groups has any ability to impact global CO2 emissions (same as Denmark). We can reasonably assume that a smaller group has even less ability to impact global CO2 emissions than a bigger group. Hence the smaller-than-Denmark reminder has no…

Your logic is wrong - a Denmark sized group of Chinese people is probably all it takes to operate their solar panel producing factories.

The reason Denmark can't do anything isn't because there are few of them, it is because Denmark isn't a significant industrial cluster for energy technology and innovation. For example, India has more people than China and they aren't in a position to do much unless there is some sort of tech breakthrough that hasn't made it to my notice.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#298

Post by ZeroGravitas »

motohagiography wrote: post #215
rob74 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what are you proposing? Just do nothing about climate change, as we have done before, and have worse social consequences in the near future rather than now? Denmark is more at risk from rising sea levels than other countries ( https://cphpost.dk/2023-02-17/news/rising-sea-levels-threate... ), so they want to do something about it.

not OP, but how about some technology innovation instead of governance and taxation? the effect of taxing farmers as though they were some kind of vanity industry will be similar to what nationalizing farms has done in prior schemes like this. it creates a national dependency on imported food from countries that do not bankrupt their farmers, and suddenly (shocked!) the entire Danish food supply crosses the borders t…

> how about some technology innovation instead of governance and taxation

The history of solar, EVs, batteries etc. show these work hand in hand.

Why invent a way to capture methane from slurry, or form a business to sell that idea to farmers if they're allowed to pollute for free?

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#299

Post by addcommitpush »

oezi wrote: post #269
addcommitpush wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that China has no ability to impact global CO2 emissions either. Let’s split China population in k Denmark-sized groups, plus one smaller-than-Denmark reminder. None of the k groups has any ability to impact global CO2 emissions (same as Denmark). We can reasonably assume that a smaller group has even less ability to impact global CO2 emissions than a bigger group. Hence the smaller-than-Denmark reminder has no…

Certainly you are just demonstrating the opposite. Everyone has the ability to impact global CO2 emmissions. We certainly need international coordination or actors with a minimal set of morals to achieve it.

> Everyone has the ability to impact global CO2 emmissions.

I'm afraid most people are smaller-than-Denmark groups, and thus unable whatsoever to impact global emissions. It's just math.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#300

Post by aziaziazi »

batushka5 wrote: post #278
Refusing23 wrote: post #258

It's not exactly true the government will offer to buy the land from farmers etc. but they can just say 'no'

And in case they choose "no", that carbon tax for farm animals help to think second time.

In case they farm carbon intensive animals like cows, yes. For the pigs farmers no so much. However those pigs farms totally destroy Denmark fishing areas which traditionally feed the population.
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