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A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

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Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accurate. This romanticist nonsense also means that adequately lit and drained paths - for walking, cycling and wheeling at all hours - inevitably attract rural NIMBY ire. "Preserve the character of our rural village with its 5000 SUVs and its manor house built by plantation owners". Presumably someone's done a Tolkien fanfic where it turns out the hobbits have a bunch of plantations in Numenor or somewhere populated…

I did always wonder about the general standard of living in the Shire - always seemed suspiciously high to me.

Decent amount of manufactured goods, always enough food, no sign of a serf labouring class or any manufacturing to speak of.

It's 18th(ish) century rural England, without all the stuff that made 18th century rural England a relatively comfortable place, which is to say colonies, the slave trade, the early industrial revolution and so on.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#292
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ideas are only one part of a successfully functioning sociotechnical system. The bike intersections won't work if users behave differently (just like how automobile traffic is terrible if you get different driving styles mixing).

You might interpret that clearly true statement in two different ways: - That it's not feasible to incorporate this style of traffic design elsewhere since cultures differ - That we need to consider how traffic engineering (eventually) shapes user behavior. I'm convinced the second one is the one that quite quickly is much more predictive of outcomes. These Dutch-style intersections make the safe behavior natural and…

One of my favorite moves is when the Dutch simply don’t provide any guidance whatsoever in certain intersections. No signs. Brick or stone paving.

It really works! "When you don't exactly know who has right of way, you tend to seek eye contact with other road users. You automatically reduce your speed, you have contact with other people and you take greater care."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats absoluyely not true. There is the so called principle of dual causality. If you hit a car you might have to pay 50% depending on situation. If its clearly the biker its still 0% for the car.

If its clearly the biker its still 0% for the car. It's a bit more complicated than that. The car is only 0% responsible in the case of 'force majeur'. Which means that it was impossible for the driver of the motorized vehicle to avoid the accident. https://letselschade.com/kennisbank/wat-is-overmacht-zoals-b... Note that (translated): "an appeal to force majeur will rarely by successful in practice, because it's rar…

It's a bit more complicated than that even.

While not going into details: 1. This only concerns liability for damages. 2. It is not necessarily the case that the cyclist is exempt from (fully) compensating the motorized driver for their damages, even if the cyclist is reimbursed for (a portion of) their own damages.

Also note that most cyclists are insured!

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The roads are paid for in a large part by road taxes and fuel taxes. Cyclists pay zero towards it in direct taxation, apart from general taxation that everyone pays anyway. Why should cyclists be able to free load off of infrastructure paid for by tax-paying vehicles, and dictate that they are built to favour cyclists when they are not contributing a single penny? Also your point about being "near" is kinda ridiculou…

Just to reply to myself instead of each post calling me dumb individually: I said we all pay via general taxation, so yes you me everyone pays for roads if we use them or not. Vehicle users also pay in addition to general taxes the direct taxes for their usage in terms of road tax and fuel duties (N.b. that road usage fees per mile are on the cards for EVs). Cyclists pay none of these (unless they also own a car) If…

I couldn't agree more, we should make sure cyclists and motorists pay their fair share.

1. The damage caused to a road surface is governed by the fourth power law [1]:

"This means that after 160,000 crossings, the bicycle causes as much damage as the car does when driving on the road only once. From this it can be deduced that a large part of the damage in the streets is caused by heavy motor vehicles compared to the damage caused by lighter vehicles."

2. Dedicated cycling infrastructure has the lowest cost of all vehicle infrastructure [2]:

"The annual infrastructure costs per traveller kilometre are 0.03 euros for bicycles, 0.10 euros for cars, 0.14 euros for buses, and 0.18 euros for trains."

3. The implication that whatever extra taxes motorists pay cover all externalities of driving, like death and injuries (40 000 deaths per year in the US alone) and health complications from brake dust and tire rubber seems laughably naive to me but perhaps there are some hard numbers that say otherwise?

I too yearn for the day motorists pay for the damage they cause.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

[2]: https://www.government.nl/binaries/government/documenten/rep...

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#295

you need space to do that, not many cities in Europe have the luxury of being built from scratch and having so much space to dedicate to a single intersection. Where i live (in Rome) the streets are like this https://as1.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/04/93/42/24/1000_F_493422444_Hw... edit: anyway the simplest solution is to turn every intersection into a roundabout, no traffic lights needed, clear right of way, cars can't go fas…

Here in the Netherlands also in small streets and areas bike lanes are common. They are literally drawn on the street and a car is basically not allowed to ride on them when a bike is passing.

cars are not allowed to hit pedestrian or bikes on any street, but they do all the time.

disallowing something doesn't make it non existent.

In the neighborhood where that picture was taken live approximately 15 thousand people and many more come every night to hang out.

I know it's bad, I do not approve people going everywhere with their cars even when it's obviously wrong, but it is what it is, and it doesn't make the problem go away.

Street space is premium space in cities.

I wish we could simply stop this car madness by wishful thinking, but we can't.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which in turn means only most aggressive cyclists stay on the road. In London more than half cyclists jump the red light.

This sort of comment always comes up. Cars break rules too and there is a more of them. What’s the point being made?

Car drivers potentially face consequences in terms of loss of license, and should be carrying insurance if something happens. No equivalence for cyclists and honestly the Netherlands is the least safe I've felt as a pedestrian in regards to hostile cyclists.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#297

Interesting that very few (any?) people in the pictures are wearing helmets. In the US, I think it's a lot more common for cyclers to wear helmets. Maybe that comes with a fear of getting clobbered by a car.

From what I can remember, the overseeing bodies (whatever they are) are not convinced that requiring helmets would reduce serious incident rates, and in fact convinced that this would decrease overall bike ridership. I'd speculate that the metric of "injuries per kilometer cycled" wouldn't budge because of a helmets requirement. Can't find a good summary of this now, but some bits of this are googleable.

Some sources:

[1]: "Cycling UK wants to keep helmets an optional choice. Forcing - or strongly encouraging - people to wear helmets deters people from cycling and undermines the public health benefits of cycling. This campaign seeks to educate policy makers and block misguided attempts at legislation."

[2]: "Even if helmets are 85% effective (and assuming q = 0.5 as above), the number of cyclists’ lives saved will still be outnumbered by deaths to non-cyclists if there is a reduction in cycle use of more than 2%"

[3]: "Enforced helmet laws and helmet promotion have consistently caused substantial reductions in cycle use (30-40% in Perth, Western Australia). Although they have also increased the proportion of the remaining cyclists who wear helmets, the safety of these cyclists has not improved relative to other road user groups (for example, in New Zealand).

The resulting loss of cycling’s health benefits alone (that is, before taking account of its environmental, economic and societal benefits) is very much greater than any possible injury prevention benefit."

[...]

"Evidence also suggests that even the voluntary promotion of helmet wearing may reduce cycle use."

[...]

"Even with very optimistic assumptions as to the efficacy of helmets, relatively minor reductions in cycling on account of a helmet law are sufficient to cancel out, in population average terms, all head injury health benefits."

[4]: "With 290 cyclist fatalities in 2022, cyclists were the largest group of road casualties. Of these, most were killed by collision with a vehicle (206 bicycle deaths)."

[5]: "Cycling levels in the Netherlands have substantial population-level health benefits: about 6500 deaths are prevented annually, and Dutch people have half-a-year-longer life expectancy. These large population-level health benefits translate into economic benefits of €19 billion per year, which represents more than 3% of the Dutch gross domestic product between 2010 and 2013.3.

The 6500 deaths that are prevented annually as a result of cycling becomes even more impressive when compared with the population health effects of other preventive measures. In an overview, Mackenbach et al.11 showed that the 22 new preventive interventions that have been introduced in the Netherlands between 1970 and 2010 (e.g., tobacco control, population-based screening for cancer, and road safety measures) altogether prevent about 16 000 deaths per year.

Still, our results are likely to be an underestimation of the true total health and economic benefits."

[6]: "Riding a bicycle to work every day reduces the risk of premature death by 41% (risk of dying from heart disease: -52%; risk of dying from cancer: -40%)."

[...]

"Regular cycling boosts physical fitness and compares to 1 to 2 weekly gym sessions."

[...]

"Bicycle use not only improves physical health, but also has a positive impact on mental health and subjective well-being."

[1]: https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaign/cycle-helmets-evidence

[2]: https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1249.html

[3]: https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/why-should-highway-codes-a...

[4]: https://english.kimnet.nl/publications/publications/2023/11/...

[5]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504332/

[6]: https://www.government.nl/binaries/government/documenten/rep...

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#298

This design highlights a major failing with UK cycle "infrastructure". Here, we often have shared use pavements with sometimes a bit of white paint to designate the pedestrian and cycle lanes, but they cede priority at every single side road. The problem is that it makes cycling using them really awkward as it takes significant energy for cyclists to slow down and then speed up multiple times. The irony is that if yo…

Italy has exactly the same problem. Not only we have a horrible infrastructure (the quality of our asphalt is abysmal), but cycle paths are pretty much always shared with pedestrians, and they're filled with obstacles (manholes, poles, chicanes...). Moreover, bike paths are usually built on only one side of the road as a two-way path. It's dangerous for everybody involved, especially when a car has to stop and give w…

That's also the case in other places. The reason is easy. Cycle paths are not build for cyclist, but to them away from the main street and not be an "obstacle" to cars.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#299
Very cool, but to me it kind of illustrates a common pattern of thought on here which is that there's theoretically some sort of "optimum" city design which works for everyone which is a fallacy.

There are costs and benefits to everything. In London you can walk ten minutes, jump on the train, get where you want, have a walkable (ish) town centre, go home drunk, and it's accessible to the poor (if we assume away rents which are theoretically solvable).

But then in various American cities you can drive 20 minutes in your own bubble from your suburban house to a parking lot around the corner from the bar/restaurant/whatever. You're shielded from weather and don't have to socialise with undesirables.

Neither of those systems feel inherently "wrong" or "right" to me, they feel like different opinions. I've enjoyed both at different stages of my life for different reasons.

If anything I feel that the "worst case" is when you try to mix both because then you either have hilarious congestion (because cars are too big to fit on medieval streets) or huge walking distances / public transport dead spots (because trains can't cover large areas with low population density).

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#300

Driving in towns and cities in the Netherlands is frightening as a foreigner not used to it as you're constantly afraid about hitting a cyclist. I drive like a grandma there. And that's how it should be. I always regret not taking the very advice I gave yesterday about European cities and parking on the outskirts!

It's much easier if you also cycle or just walk. People in cars in a city is pretty weird, we just got way too much used to it.
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