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Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

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Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#291

Post by dangus »

shubhamkrm wrote: post #271
dangus wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Regular Joe people are using progressive web apps in the first place? I think Android users also prefer apps over websites and PWAs anyway. I would guess that if I took a poll of all my real life not-technology friends that zero of them use a PWA, know what it is, or even have one installed by accident. I think that this idea that Apple is making Safari deliberately shitty to stop PWAs from taking over may h…

> How many Regular Joe people are using progressive web apps in the first place? I know several of them, because Google doesn’t let e-commerce apps in my country sell cigarettes and other products containing tobacco. The android version of these apps guide users into installing their PWA version if they wish to order such products.

Of course e-commerce doesn’t really need app-like features at all and works fine on the plain web.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#292

Post by [deleted] »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #265
dangus wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say I'm defending Apple so much as I'm defending the idea that it might not just be making these technical decisions/iterations entirely based on the most cynical possible interpretation of the situation. For all we know WebXR immersive just isn't ready yet, just like WebXR wasn't ready for VisionOS 1 and shipped in VisionOS 2, which also makes sense considering that Apple's VR/AR business is years behind…

It was all on purpose. Maybe they haven’t been sued and discovery hasn’t turned up the specific email needed to convince you.

[deleted]

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#293

Post by leptons »

dragonwriter wrote: post #249
leptons wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft stopped developing IE when the government sued them for simply including IE with Windows, the same thing Apple does with Safari. But Apple is far more abusive and forbids any other browser engine on iOS, all browsers on iOS are forced to use Safari under the hood.

> Microsoft stopped developing IE when the government sued them for simply including IE with Windows They weren't sued for simply including IE with Windows (bundling IE and business arrangements to prevent OEMs from replacing was one of several means of leveraging the Windows desktop OS monopoly to monopolize other markets in the antitrust suit), and they didn't stop developing IE when that suit was initiated. > But…

> "The central issue was whether Microsoft was allowed to bundle its IE web browser software with its Windows operating system."

> "the DOJ built upon the allegation that Microsoft forced computer makers to include its Internet browser as a part of the installation of Windows software."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

It's the same exact situation with MacOS/iOS and Safari, but it's actually far worse with Apple and iOS Safari because people have no choice to install another web browser on iOS, all web browsers on iOS are Safari.

Now, finally, the DOJ is rightly going after Apple for doing this, and many, many other abusive business practices.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#294

Post by thephyber »

robocat wrote: post #277
thephyber wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of the complaints in the article were about websites using User Agent string to detect compatibility, rather than individual feature sniffing. In that small complaint, I would agree. But I think the fault is mostly with the website owners, not with the browser.

> rather than individual feature sniffing Feature sniffing generally doesn't work for anything interactive. Many bugs in controls, animation, events are not sniffable. Yet developers still need to deliver workarounds. Feature sniffing works best for static HTML documents - and even then the code to actually do the sniffing can be demonic code (a side-effect or correlation or an obscure discovery). Using just feature…

> And detecting the browser for obsolete browsers is usually a perfectly fine solution.

But there are a long tail of user agents and the average web developer does a terrible job at identifying those in the long tail. My password manager on iOS uses the newest Safari engine, but all websites think it is an outdated/obsolete browser because it uses a user agent string they don't recognize.

Also, my bank doesn’t use highly interactive features you mention. It’s almost exclusively links, forms and a little validation JavaScript. Feature sniffing would have been a much better experience.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#295

Post by sureIy »

troupo wrote: post #260
sureIy wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari was late until a couple of years ago when they started implementing new features more aggressively. Now it's always Firefox. Just check how long it took them to add support for the :has() selector and RegEx Lookbehind. We're years into "manifest v3" and background workers are nowhere to be found.

Funnily enough it was Firefox who figured out a workable algorithm for :has IIRC

Absolutely not.

Firefox has mindbogglingly bad performance with :has() even if their superficial tests tell you otherwise. I experienced minute-long lockups just because I used :has() on a large element like body. Chrome and Safari had no issues with those selectors.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#296

Post by gavindean90 »

skybrian wrote: post #42

When was the last time you wanted to build a website and web browsers got in the way? Those days are long gone. Compared to a decade ago, everything is amazing.

Tbh service workers are different across browsers and the specific implementations should be taken into account. That or I am bad at it.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#297

Post by hu3 »

fingerlocks wrote: post #141
hu3 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clearly NOT intended only for small screen mobile devices. There's no reason to restrict suggesting input types to mobile browsers only. That's exactly why desktop Chrome and Firefox has support it for a long time now.

well apparently Apple disagrees

yeah, as usual. That's exactly the point

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#298

Post by jetofff »

eMPee584 wrote: post #212
lmm wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Firefox that gets the vast majority of its revenue from Google, that Firefox? I think the only full-featured browser with a prosocial funding model is Konqueror, where what little money there is mostly comes from EU grants. Not coincidental that its code quality was so much better that everyone else based on its rendering engine.

and until recently, the only browser that allows to split the view into independent sub-windows..

wait how'd you do this

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#299

Post by Aloisius »

fenomas wrote: post #287
Aloisius wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue calling non-standard chrome/firefox/opera features "standards" is misleading.

This is plain bad faith. If you know anything about web standards, you already know the W3C process requires candidate implementations and interoperability before a standard reaches its later stages. Other browsers implemented the standards earlier because they participated in that process; calling those implementations "non-standard chrome/etc features" is absurd.

Later stages? These features often get implemented at the working draft stage - a stage where major changes can still happen, it has no consensus or even wide review.

Google implementing a draft they themselves authored with minimal review doesn't make it standard just because w3c publishes the draft.

Re: Is Chrome the New IE? (2023)

#300

Post by troupo »

sureIy wrote: post #295
troupo wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough it was Firefox who figured out a workable algorithm for :has IIRC

Absolutely not. Firefox has mindbogglingly bad performance with :has() even if their superficial tests tell you otherwise. I experienced minute-long lockups just because I used :has() on a large element like body. Chrome and Safari had no issues with those selectors.

I stand corrected. It was the absolute legends at Igalia. See links and explainer here: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/528
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