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Trump wins presidency for second time

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Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#291

Is there some analysis why the polls didn't correctly predict the result? A failure in representative polls like this should be avoided with statistical methods.

Busy people have no time to answer polsters. When you heavily critisize one group of supporters (and the social stigma associated with it), dont be suprised that in private they think differently. Finally, intentionally fabricating wrong poll results can psychologically influence weak minded (due to group think and our desire to comply with social norms). So it is immature to accept polls as a real indicator of what people think (especially in controversial political environment).

In reality, a lot more people have traditional values when it comes to race, LGBT whatever, sexism, spiritual values, opinions on Russia, Israel etc. However in public they may be scared to voice their true opinions.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#292

From a game theoretical perspective this is a good result. It is a clear reiteration of the message to the Democrats: you won't win by claiming to be 0.1% less bad. The Democrats should have fielded a strong personality in their own right. This is not about left or right. It's about mobilizing people by giving them something to care about. "More of the same" and "not like that guy" isn't very enticing. I don't think…

"I don't think the policy positions even matter that much, if you can make a strong case and gain the confidence of the electorate."

That's pretty sad state of the system. Policy positions should be the primary thing voters care about.

"It's about mobilizing people by giving them something to care about."

Yeah, but this is how you get the most extreme candidates. Look at the primaries. They have very small numbers of voters, and the voters in just a few states set the tone for those elections due to timing. You can make a huge difference by mobilizing voters with increasingly extreme positions or rhetoric. As you said, status quo doesn't energize. That means the people are less likely to get involved fir the staus quo unless they have a strong sense of duty about voting.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#293

As a European, I’m trying to see the positive side of this situation. Here are a few thoughts: - It appears that Democrats are often seen as part of an "elite," which makes it difficult for people at home to relate to or understand their message. A full reset might be needed to bridge this gap. - Europe has long been under the shadow of the United States. Perhaps this could be a good start toward greater independence…

Right-wing demagogues have been playing this game for years. Imagine being the party of billionaires and pointing to the other side and shouting "elites!"

I've never understood it, but it's an impressive party trick.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#294

As a European, I’m trying to see the positive side of this situation. Here are a few thoughts: - It appears that Democrats are often seen as part of an "elite," which makes it difficult for people at home to relate to or understand their message. A full reset might be needed to bridge this gap. - Europe has long been under the shadow of the United States. Perhaps this could be a good start toward greater independence…

There is no positive for Europe. Only bad to worse. Globalization is dead. In Africa hunger and mass migration to Europe. Europe needs to militarize: Defense budget >5%, deportations, conscription, nukes and a fully functional independent army against expansionist Russia who now will have Trump's acquiesence. America must be seen as possible enemy. I am not being hyperbolic. It's parabellum.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#295

With all of the hacking and newfangled ai tools out there, perhaps hand counting removes some of that element.

Casino slot machines are highly regulated and certified by accredited agencies. They give accurate results. Vote counting machines, not so much.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#296

[flagged]

The US is currently in proxy war with Russia on two fronts: Ukraine and Israel/Iran. Conceding Ukraine would help Iran, which is probably not what Israel wants. The idea that Trump would be friendly to Putin -- lift sanctions, give him Ukraine -- seems like a strategical contradiction.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#298
post #231

There’s lots of blame and anger directed at Democrats, but ultimately it’s the Republicans who picked Trump. They could have won against the unpopular Biden/Harris with practically any other candidate. Nikki Haley polled well against all possible Democrats. The party was already done with Trump in February 2021, but then they explicitly decided that they prefer one more try with an old man who doesn’t spare much thou…

Some would say that Trump won 3 times

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#299

Is there some analysis why the polls didn't correctly predict the result? A failure in representative polls like this should be avoided with statistical methods.

The polling margins were razor-thin.

Pollsters such as Nate Silver were giving gut-takes of Red over Blue, e.g.:

"Nate Silver: Here’s What My Gut Says About the Election, but Don’t Trust Anyone’s Gut, Even Mine" (Oct. 23, 2024)

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/opinion/election-polls-re...>

I've done a somewhat half-assed take tonight of comparing actual returns to latest pre-election polling by state

Why that is, isn't clear. Political pollsters have been struggling for years with accuracy issues, particularly as landline usage falls (it's Polling does have periodic calibration events (we call those "elections"), but whatever biases the polls seem to experience in the US, it's apparently systemically exceeding adjustment factors.

Polls / votes and deltas:

  QC   State EV  BP  RP  BV  RV   Bd   Rd

   4:  AL     9  36  64  32  65   -4    1  
   4:  AK     3  45  55   0   0  
   4:  AZ    11  49  51  49  50    0   -1  
   4:  AR     6  36  64  34  64   -2    0  
   4:  CA    54  63  37  60  37   -3    0  
   4:  CO    10  56  44  55  43   -1   -1  
   4:  CT     7  59  41  54  44   -5    3  
   4:  DC     3  92   7  90   7   -2    0  
   4:  DE     3  58  42  56  42   -2    0  
   4:  FL    30  47  53  43  56   -4    3  
   4:  GA    16  49  51  48  51   -1    0  
   4:  HI     4  64  36   0   0  
   4:  ID     4  33  67  33  64    0   -3  
   4:  IL    19  57  43  52  47   -5    4  
   4:  IN    11  41  57  39  59   -2    2  
   4:  IA     6  46  54  42  56   -4    2  
   4:  KS     6  42  51  41  57   -1    6  
   4:  KY     8  36  64  34  64   -2    0  
   4:  LA     8  40  60  38  60   -2    0  
   4:  ME     2  54  46   0   0  
   4:  ME-1   1  61  39   0   0  
   4:  ME-2   1  47  53   0   0  
   4:  MD    10  64  36  60  37   -4    1  
   4:  MA    11  64  36  62  35   -2   -1  
   4:  MI    15  50  49   0   0  
   4:  MN    10  53  47   0   0  
   4:  MS     6  40  60  37  62   -3    2  
   4:  MO    10  43  57  42  56   -1   -1  
   4:  MT     4  41  59  33  64   -8    5  
   4:  NE     4  41  59  42  56    1   -3  
   4:  NE-2   1  54  46   0   0  
   4:  NM     5  54  46  51  47   -3    1  
   4:  NV     6  50  50   0   0  
   4:  NH     4  53  47  52  47   -1    0  
   4:  NJ    14  57  43  51  46   -6    3  
   4:  NY    28  59  41  55  44   -4    3  
   4:  NC    16  49  51  48  51   -1    0  
   4:  ND     3  33  67  31  67   -2    0  
   4:  OH    17  46  54  44  55   -2    1  
   4:  OK     7  33  67  32  66   -1   -1  
   4:  OR     8  56  44  55  43   -1   -1  
   4:  PA    19  50  50   0   0  
   4:  RI     4  58  42  55  42   -3    0  
   4:  SC     9  44  56  40  58   -4    2  
   4:  SD     3  36  64  29  69   -7    5  
   4:  TN    11  38  62  34  64   -4    2  
   4:  TX    40  46  54  42  57   -4    3  
   4:  UT     6  39  61  43  54    4   -7  
   4:  VT     3  67  34  64  32   -3   -2  
   4:  VA    13  53  47  51  47   -2    0  
   4:  WA    12  59  41  58  39   -1   -2  
   4:  WV     4  30  70  28  70   -2    0  
   4:  WI    10  50  49   0   0  
   4:  WY     3  73  27  70  28   -3    1  
  
  
  Blue votes: 43
  Red votes: 43
  
  Blue delta:  -2.49
  Red delta:    0.63
Key:

- QC: A parsing QC value (number of raw fields)

- State: 2-char state code, dash-number indicates individual EVs for NE and ME.

- EV: Electoral votes

- BP: Blue polling

- RP: Red polling

- BV: Blue vote return

- RV: Red vote return

- Bd: Blue delta (vote - poll)

- Rd: Red delta (vote - poll)

The last two results are the cumulative average deltas. Blue consistently performed ~2.5 points below polls, red performed ~0.6 points above polls.

Data are rounded to nearest whole percent (I'd like to re-enter data to 0.1% precision and re-run, though overall effect should be similar). Deltas are computed only where voting returns are >0.

Data are hand-entered from 538 and ABC returns pages.

Blue consistently polled slightly higher than performance. Polls don't seem to include third parties (mostly Green, some state returns include RFK or others).

There are all but certainly coding/data entry errors here, though for illustration the point should hold.

Re: Trump wins presidency for second time

#300

As a European, I’m trying to see the positive side of this situation. Here are a few thoughts: - It appears that Democrats are often seen as part of an "elite," which makes it difficult for people at home to relate to or understand their message. A full reset might be needed to bridge this gap. - Europe has long been under the shadow of the United States. Perhaps this could be a good start toward greater independence…

[flagged]
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