#BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban • Hacker News Board

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#291

Post by cgranade » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:19 PM UTC

mitchty wrote: post #253

cgranade wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Evaluate technology for its tech, not for the company's legal team." No. Doing so means that I can become complicit in legal actions that ultimately hurt me as a consumer by providing companies like Apple with the revenue they need to fund such attacks. One must consider the legal actions, the social actions, etc. of a company when buying their products; it's part of being a responsible and long-term self-interested…

I'm curious then, what exactly do you buy? Almost every company on this planet has done things both legally and socially that would mean you boycott almost all corporations. This would asus is out, samsung, motorola, , how do you correlate this view with the rest of the products you buy? Do you drive a car and fill it with gasoline or diesel? Then likely you're implicating yourself in the extraction of natural resour…

I get that there are compromises made in every decision I make, and that to that extent, I am complicit in the actions taken by the companies that I support. I certainly did not mean to exempt myself from that; rather, I was trying to argue against the philosophy that such considerations should be ignored. While I get that pragmatism is important, I disagree that we can disregard the actions of the companies we support.

As for the point about patents, I think that there's a difference between acting on infringement and actively seeking to expand their patents post-hoc to shut down competition. More broadly, I think that the USPTO needs to be much more selective about patents, to avoid precisely these kinds of problems.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#292

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #261

jaebrown wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to say you're not right but just about every company behaves indecently. Samsung, Google, Microsoft and others all have their offenses in the people's eye for what is right but this is business and we people should just let it play itself out in court.

If the patent system is so broken that it's abused by all kind of trolls (including Apple), do you think courts can fix it? Only patent reform can change something. And meanwhile, boycotting works too.

It seems your from USA; I'll assume you mean the US patent system, and I gather that in the USA you elect judges but do you think that the courts should be "fixing" the law. Do you elect the judiciary to alter the law?

Unbiased application of the law seems much more becoming of a judicial system than rewriting of it.

If you have your judiciary do the statute [re]writing then do you want your government doing that too?

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#293

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:26 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #117

zhoutong wrote: post #18

I don't understand why #BoycottSomething should be used for protests. Boycotting an influential company is extremely hard. I'm sure that there are more rational ways to protest, instead of trying to boycott a company that actually delivers some of the best products. No company is perfect and Apple's case is just a tip of an iceberg in the whole industry. http://www.dontmakemesteal.com/ is a good example. We know the…

Boycotting Apple is very easy. They have a very limited number of products sold in their own stores. Try boycotting Johnson & Johnson or Nestle.

I've boycotted Nestle in the past and still err away from them as a producer.

It's right that it's hard to avoid buying any single product that sends money back to Nestle or PG or J&J or whoever but it's not hard to cut back practically. Search online for a list of the company's products and try to avoid them.

Like you said boycotting Apple [Computers] is very easy.

I don't think the parent understands how a boycott works. You don't say "I can't boycott company X because their coffee tastes nicer that company Y's"; unless having slightly nicer tasting coffee completely outweighs the moral wrong that you're trying to punish.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#294

Post by sliverstorm » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

vibrunazo wrote: post #249

raganesh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are accusing her of bribery, that is a very serious allegation. Imagine if such a thing happens and is eventually exposed. What a scandal would it be. I don't think any large company, let alone Apple, would want to be involved in any such mess.

Corruption isn't as straight forward simple as Hollywood movies make it out be "Here take this dollars and do this for me". It's usually a complex net of interests and favors trading, that's really hard to prove. Maybe someone at apple just happen to contribute to someone's political campaign, who is proposing legislation that just so happens would benefit the judge's family business. This level of corruption happens…

The part that makes it difficult, is where exactly do you draw the line between "trading favors" and "corruption"?

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#295

Post by jaebrown » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:38 PM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #160

jaebrown wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to say you're not right but just about every company behaves indecently. Samsung, Google, Microsoft and others all have their offenses in the people's eye for what is right but this is business and we people should just let it play itself out in court.

> but this is business and we people should just let it play itself out in court. I'd be okay if the patents in question were not trivial and something really innovative(like RSA). Also, consumers should make decisions based on their convictions too. For example, I shop at CostCo instead of Sam's Club because CostCo treats their employees much better than Walmart(which owns Sams) does. "Be the change you wish to see…

I totally understand your point but these are the rules in which the game they play in. Each company has the money to make a stand for the change they want to see and if it was truly broken, I think we would see a unified body of tech companies coming together to enforce those changes. Either Congress is not listening or there are some companies that are fine with the current system. The companies I'm referring to are not Patent Trolls because they do not have the money to go toe to toe with a big company like Apple, Samsung, Microsoft or Google when it comes to hiring lobbyist, court fees, legals fee and PR. They're the companies we're speaking of now, that secretly like the current structure. Congress seems to be interested as they have a patent reform bill on the Senate right now.

Consumers should take more of a note on issues of the companies and products they buy but I believe in this case it's irrelevant to them. I too choose CostCo over Sam's Club and Meijers over Wal-Mart because of the same thing you brought up. However, our choices are based on how they treat people and not patents on which a company clearly infringed upon. The basis on why they infringed or if it's wrong or not is not for us to decide but for the courts.

I don't like the current system either but it is the current system.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#296

Post by nsns » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:50 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #294

vibrunazo wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption isn't as straight forward simple as Hollywood movies make it out be "Here take this dollars and do this for me". It's usually a complex net of interests and favors trading, that's really hard to prove. Maybe someone at apple just happen to contribute to someone's political campaign, who is proposing legislation that just so happens would benefit the judge's family business. This level of corruption happens…

The part that makes it difficult, is where exactly do you draw the line between "trading favors" and "corruption"?

Making a legal decision based on your own personal gains and not the data?

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#297

Post by shmerl » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #292

shmerl wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the patent system is so broken that it's abused by all kind of trolls (including Apple), do you think courts can fix it? Only patent reform can change something. And meanwhile, boycotting works too.

It seems your from USA; I'll assume you mean the US patent system, and I gather that in the USA you elect judges but do you think that the courts should be "fixing" the law. Do you elect the judiciary to alter the law? Unbiased application of the law seems much more becoming of a judicial system than rewriting of it. If you have your judiciary do the statute [re]writing then do you want your government doing that too…

Courts don't create laws, they interpret and apply them. Laws are created by the legislative power (i.e. congress). Courts is the judicial power. I.e. to fix this mess, legislative power needs to reform the patent law.

Here is a proposal: https://defendinnovation.org

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#298

Post by shmerl » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 8:04 PM UTC

jaebrown wrote: post #295

recoiledsnake wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this is business and we people should just let it play itself out in court. I'd be okay if the patents in question were not trivial and something really innovative(like RSA). Also, consumers should make decisions based on their convictions too. For example, I shop at CostCo instead of Sam's Club because CostCo treats their employees much better than Walmart(which owns Sams) does. "Be the change you wish to see…

I totally understand your point but these are the rules in which the game they play in. Each company has the money to make a stand for the change they want to see and if it was truly broken, I think we would see a unified body of tech companies coming together to enforce those changes. Either Congress is not listening or there are some companies that are fine with the current system. The companies I'm referring to ar…

How is it irrelevant? Consumers should not support companies which engage in crooked anticompetitive behavior. Our choices should be based on something more than how they treat consumers.

It's like "blood diamonds". They might be all nice and sparkling, but really stained in blood. Do you think it's enough to look just at the external value? It's not enough. It's good to vote with your wallet, boycotting companies which engage in unethical business practices.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#299

Post by saraid216 » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 8:57 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #248

koide wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that a country as a whole is relatively non corrupt doesn't say anything about specific people and their corruptibility. Also, the U.S.A. is number 24 of around 180 countries on the Corruption Perceptions Index and appears below countries such as Bahamas, Chile or Qatar.

I'd be a little skeptical of an index which shows Japan as being relatively less corrupt than the US. If one were to read up on Japan, it's clear that for a first world country, it's rather corrupt --not the same way, say Indis is corrupt, but still, I feel more so than the US, specifically. Dogs and Demons (A. Kerr) is filled with instances how corruption has contributed to massive misallocation of resources, coveru…

Do you have an opinion on the measures used to create the index? Are they leaving something significant out? Or is the data gathering process flawed perhaps?

I'd hardly say Japan is not corrupt--obviously, it is--but saying it must be more corrupt than the US isn't exactly a justified statement when all you're working off is a feeling.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#300

Post by andyman1080 » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 9:01 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #29

mryall wrote: post #19

More interesting than a bunch of chatter on Google Plus is this article on Forbes, "Could Steve Jobs actually win his thermonuclear war?": http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/30/could-steve-jobs-actu... I don't think this will be the last of Apple's actions against Android. When Steve said they'd "patented the hell out of" the iPhone, I got the sense he really wasn't joking.

They've patented the hell out of everything that they've done in the last decade with the iPhone, but the very foundations that they stand on have been patented the hell out of by Motorola, Ericsson, Nokia, etc for the decades prior. Standing on someone else's foundations isn't the best place from which to start a thermonuclear patent war.

How are you equating standards essential 3G patents to software UI? They don't really have any correlation whatsoever.