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Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

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Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#291

Post by acdha »

lolinder wrote: post #208
GeekyBear wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you claim the platform you create is open, but use anticompetitive actions to retain control of it, you end up in a worse legal position than you would have by being clear that the platform is closed. Look at Microsoft. They have been found guilty of anticompetitive conduct related to their open Windows platform in multiple jurisdictions, but not so with XBox. Either never claim your platform is open, or refrain f…

This is a terrible incentive structure to set up for platforms. I get the reasoning, but I chose Android because it's open and I've never run into any of the anticompetitive problems people claim are so damaging. If Google had known that this was the deal at the beginning, I doubt they'd have created Android the way that they did and I wouldn't have an open platform to use—we'd just have two walled gardens. How is th…

> I've never run into any of the anticompetitive problems people claim are so damaging

That sounds like you either haven’t heard all of the indie developers complaining or are inclined to find reasons to say problems with “your side” have some other explanation. For example, this was just a couple weeks ago where Google’s “open platform” blocked a popular app from doing what their mutual customers wanted:

https://ia.net/topics/our-android-app-is-frozen-in-carbonite

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#292

Post by jasoneckert »

The most interesting bit for me was "I won’t discuss the Apple case more than this brief outline since I’m ethically bound." This included a link to: https://www.theverge.com/authors/sean-hollister/archives/38

Did his wife sign an Apple NDA that applies to family members? Or does he not want to anger Apple out of fear of retaliation towards his wife? Either way, I don't see how the word "ethics" applies to either situation.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#293

Post by johnnyanmac »

kelnos wrote: post #137
Mindwipe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are. This competition means an enormous boom in quality content has been produced that would have never existed otherwise because of the competition. Choices are great and have resulted in far better services.

I don't agree. TV/movie programming, and the services they run on, are not fungible. If I have a show that I like that's only on a certain platform, it doesn't matter how good or bad that platform is, I need a subscription. The problem is tying the content to the platform. All studios should be required to license their content under RAND terms to all other streaming platforms. Then the streaming platforms can actual…

>it doesn't matter how good or bad that platform is, I need a subscription.

cool. and Netflix's binge culture works against them for subscribers who only want one show. A new season hits and I can spend $10-20 to watch it and leave.

It will depend on your perspective. If you watch a bunch of TV and movies everyday then you got a worse deal. But it also makes sense you'd pay more than me, who's last venture was 1 month of Paramount for the Knuckles Show (and I didn't even pay. I went to a friend's place).

>We correctly recognized that the studios should not have a monopoly on where and how their content is distributed. Unfortunately I believe that law has expired or been repealed recently. We're going in the wrong direction.

I mean, it's not like the current endgame of AMC or Cinemark has turned out better. I paid $14 for the saddest hot dog I had ever eaten earlier in the year. someone will always try to fleece you if they have the chance.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#294

Post by clhodapp »

rezonant wrote: post #268
clhodapp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logical consequence of this argument is that there is no such thing as a business practice which is illegal for a monopoly, but which is legal for a startup. As long as you start doing it when you're small, it must be OK. I don't think that holds water. The standards should definitely get higher as you gain more market share.

I assume you meant to respond to GP

I did! I don't know how I managed to reply to the wrong comment.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#295

Post by reissbaker »

mvdtnz wrote: post #138
kelnos wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the Apple Epic decision go all the way up to SCOTUS? If not, any precedent set by a lower court would be limited to its district/circuit.

They were both in the same court (United States District Court for the Northern District of California).

Although Epic appealed to SCOTUS, and SCOTUS rejected their appeal, which makes it seem like SCOTUS is unlikely to rule that app stores have to be open.

In general the judicial system's bizarre treatment of Apple baffles and somewhat infuriates me. If Google has to allow alternative app stores on Android due to monopoly power, and has to allow alternate billing options due to monopoly power, and yet is the smaller of the two in the U.S., how on Earth does the legal system continue to give a free pass to Apple doing the same thing while having more market power in the U.S. than Google? It's obscene and makes me deeply question the integrity of the judicial system in the U.S. as a whole.

Personally I think both Google and Apple should have to open up their app store system and billing systems more broadly, but it's pretty despicable for the judicial system to simply pick winners and losers like this.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#296

Post by abalone »

I'm not trying to be provocative or a downvote magnet here but does anyone actually have a concrete response to the concerns Frederighi raised about sideloading and privacy / phishing protections three years ago?[1]

Isn't it like very, very obvious that while you and I and everyone else on HN appreciate the power of sideloading, average users are more easily tricked into bypassing the protections of well-run app stores?

[1] https://youtu.be/f0Gum8UkyoI

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#297

Post by johnnyanmac »

elevatedastalt wrote: post #256
wiseowise wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Streaming services what? I can download every streaming service from Play Store.

What users wanted: One streaming service from where you can stream or rent any movie or show available in the world. What users got: 1000 streaming services each with their app and UX that is shitty in a slightly different way from the other, and with a catalog that keeps changing unpredictably.

users wants are company wants. one X is how you end up with a monopoly and an endgame where they enshittify the platform to cost as much as Cable back in the day.

I'm a bit surprised a community as tech savvy as this has frustrations over the idea of using multiple platforms. decentralization by its nature means you'll have fragmentation of content. But it protects against the worse ending of Youtube price hiking mulitple times a year and doubling down on adblock users.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#298

Post by itake »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #281
tencentshill wrote: post #21

Soon we'll have the Verizon Appstore and the Spotify Appstore and the Zoom Appstore, the exclusive home for each app and their partners, each with it's own overlapping user tracking libraries and insecure payment methods, and no one can even tell them to do otherwise. Coming soon to iOS, too!

okay. Then I just use APK pure and find the APKs there. See what freedom does? Realistically, this never happens. making a platform isn't some cheap endeavor like a landing page for a website. Most people will stay on the play store and use play services. Those with more skin will consider alternative stores, and then lastly some will make their own platforms.

If the phone manufacturers stop including the play store in the default install. Then would people still use the play store?

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#299

Post by itake »

akira2501 wrote: post #48
tencentshill wrote: post #21

Soon we'll have the Verizon Appstore and the Spotify Appstore and the Zoom Appstore, the exclusive home for each app and their partners, each with it's own overlapping user tracking libraries and insecure payment methods, and no one can even tell them to do otherwise. Coming soon to iOS, too!

Yep. Then consumers can decide which one is best for them. Then they can compete. Then the best features with the best pricing, no only for customers, but the cut for developers, can be discovered. You pay such a high price for living in the walled garden. I honestly can't imagine why you would _want_ it.

If every company self regulates their own App Store, then who is going to go to ensure apps are trustworthy and reliable?

Imagine if Spotify had a Spotify store that required device id tracking for their ad network.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#300

Post by johnnyanmac »

015a wrote: post #110
sigmar wrote: post #96

I've been pretty anti-google on this topic (and a long time fdroid-lover). but this ruling is nuts to me, particularly where it says google "must give rival third-party app stores access to the full catalog of Google Play apps" I don't think we are going to see a healthy competitive marketplace with 4 years of chaos where every app store has the same apps, there's no curation at all or incentive structure for stores…

One counter-take to this is the web itself: There's no curation or incentive structure to the web, yet it thrives in ways far outpacing the walled garden app stores.

and likewise, 90% of people still converge onto some dozen websites per region anyway. If people really want that "one true platform", they will congregate and make that platform a monopoly. Against their best interests in my experience, but humanity sometimes need to re-learn the same pitfalls every generation.
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