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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#291

Post by oliwarner »

tankenmate wrote: post #219
oliwarner wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Ireland are still saying, this €13bn (plus interest) is going to work against them. It's supposed to work against them, as a chilling effect for any company trying to work EU states against each other for preferential treatment. I'm sure Ireland will argue that they'll offer any multi-billion multinational this sort of treatment, but that's really the point. The EU doesn't want a race to the bottom and if EU-local…

While I largely agree, I don't think there is any fine involved; it is just a requirement for Ireland to collect taxes that the ECJ says Apple should have paid. Hence not a fine.

You're right, of course, but Apple and Ireland won't see it that way ;)

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#292

Post by petesergeant »

sensanaty wrote: post #234
petesergeant wrote: post #227

So Ireland double-dipped here by luring the tech companies, and now it gets the foregone tax anyway. Does feel a bit like the EU should get the cash, not the state that was responsible for it

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand it, it's not really like Ireland is demanding Apple pay suddenly, the EU is saying that Apple owes Ireland the 13B and has to make up the losses due to Ireland & Apple colluding to strike an tax deal that is unfair (for all other EU members) for Apple. Ireland itself probably doesn't want to do this, since those deals exist for a reason.

Sure, but here Ireland has gotten both the benefit of the illegal agreement _and_ will get the tax revenue. Those deals existed to attract large tech companies to Ireland, and create an ecosystem there, and I don't think that'll go away just because Ireland can't offer any new ones.

Not suggesting that Ireland did this expecting to get both sets of benefits, but seems a little counter-productive that they are in fact receiving those.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#293

Post by tivert »

simonh wrote: post #130
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

>there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. About half of treasuries are held by the Fed or foreign investors which largely means other governments and foreign companies. Most of the rest are owned by pension funds, banks, local government, insurance companies, etc.

>> there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest.

> About half of treasuries are held by the Fed or foreign investors which largely means other governments and foreign companies. Most of the rest are owned by pension funds, banks, local government, insurance companies, etc.

So what? That doesn't mean you shouldn't think about it in terms of a rich person, like the GP suggests.

The modern capitalist system is a very slippery thing to think about, and there are all kinds of traps to mislead people. For instance, facts like the one you point out can draw people away from understanding the truth behind scenarios where the rich are the group that greatly disproportionally benefits while not being the group that benefits the most in absolute terms.

On a related note: IMHO the 401k is one of the greatest propaganda coups in the history of democracy. You have vast swaths of the public owning tiny, insignificant slivers of the overall pie; while the rich own big, disproportionate slices. But then the public votes to increase those tiny, tangible slivers by trading much more valuable but less tangible things.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#294

Post by petesergeant »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #245
petesergeant wrote: post #227

So Ireland double-dipped here by luring the tech companies, and now it gets the foregone tax anyway. Does feel a bit like the EU should get the cash, not the state that was responsible for it

> Does feel a bit like the EU should get the cash, not the state that was responsible for it The EU court judges that a member country didn't tax a company enough, so the EU takes the money? That would be ripe for abuse.

No more so than any other fine the EU raises

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#295

Post by piltdownman »

Supernaut wrote: post #239
aswerty wrote: post #225

From discussions in the past, I was under the impression there was general sense that if Ireland should have legitimately taxed them to this degree. That ultimately the taxes owed should probably be paid out to the countries where the sale occurs. As one country reaping the rewards of the tax for the entire European operation would be bizarre, when that country just has a medium sized support/sales operation (which w…

> ultimately the taxes owed should probably be paid out to the countries where the sale occurs. As I wrote in another thread, that's not how business works in the EU. If Volkswagen, incorporated in Germany, sells a car in Poland, they're not required to pay a corresponding sliver of their net profits to the Polish exchequer. It all stays in Germany.

Exactly. Was a great boon for 30 years for Germany as their domestic exports were the only game in town for cheap and whitegoods consumer hardware within the EU - e.g. Miele, Siemens, Bosch, Braun, Grundig, Neff, Whirlpool, Grundig...

The second it advantages another EU country at their expense, however...

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#296

Post by hayd »

ghusto wrote: post #287

> Apple, however, said in a statement: "The European Commission is trying to retroactively change the rules and ignore that, as required by international tax law, our income was already subject to taxes in the US." My understanding is that the U.S.A. double-taxes both corporations operating abroad, as well as it's own expats. If this is true, then it's quite the remark to say _the country you're actually in_ is the o…

Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. There are specific agreements to avoid double taxation but it’s unclear/unlikely the IRS are just going to hand back money Apple already paid (it likely falls outside of what’s required in those international agreements).

Companies, and people, make decisions based on the tax laws of the day eg deciding to work in the UK, Ireland or the US. States shouldn’t be able to simply retroactively change the tax rules and take money already earned and already taxed.

If they can do it to Apple, why not to regular citizens?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#297

Post by AnimalMuppet »

petesergeant wrote: post #294
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does feel a bit like the EU should get the cash, not the state that was responsible for it The EU court judges that a member country didn't tax a company enough, so the EU takes the money? That would be ripe for abuse.

No more so than any other fine the EU raises

If the EU can judge that one country's taxes have been "unfairly low" for the last N years, and take what would have been the tax receipts for the last N years, they can raise a lot more than they do by fines. This is especially true if they decide to do it for all of the businesses in a country, instead of just for a few.

I mean, look, the EU is still a place that is more or less governed by rule of law. All I'm saying is that, if the EU keeps the money, that creates the temptation to abuse it.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#298

Post by csomar »

quonn wrote: post #179
piltdownman wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All tax treaties and agreements between countries (including intra-EU) are bilateral country to country agreements. Most are refreshed every 3-7 years based on OECD (or EU) recommended standards. Ireland's laws and treatment are 100% compliant. Rather than competing and reducing their tax rates countries like France prefer to moan, as politically they can’t be seen to favour big bad businesses. This of course was no…

Look, it's nice that Ireland is finally not a poor country anymore. That's primarily due to EU politics and support. It is, however, economically nowhere even close to France or Germany, no matter how large you think the "tech job" market there is [0]. > If any one of our EU or the other non EU countries were really dissatisfied with Ireland, they have the right to withdraw at any time. Who should withdraw from what?…

> It is, however, economically nowhere even close to France or Germany, no matter how large you think the "tech job" market there is [0].

Shouldn't they then keep their low-tax environment so that they can catch up to the rest of Europe ;)

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#299

Post by hayd »

Supernaut wrote: post #277
afiori wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their net profits to the Polish exchequer I believe that part of the reason is that they still pay other taxes (eg VAT) in the country of sale.

VAT is a tax paid by the consumer, not the manufacturer. If you buy an iPhone, it's you that pays the VAT on it, not Apple.

Isn’t all corporation tax a tax on the consumer? For the consumer what difference is there compared to a tax on revenue?

If there was a 20% tax on revenue, companies would increase prices in kind…

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#300

Post by throw310822 »

SirMittens wrote: post #282
throw310822 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't Ireland be fined 13 billion from the EU then?

This is not a fine, tho. It's just the amount that Apple would have paid in taxes, if the special deal didn't exist. The EU is not imposing any fines on Apple. They're just ordering Ireland to collect the taxes owed to them (Ireland), since the tax deal was found to be unfair/illegal.

Yes. Which if you think about it, is doubly unfair. First Ireland reaped the benefits of keeping Apple in the country; then it gets paid Apple's taxes anyway. Sure, this puts a stop to the practice and makes it much harder to sell such deals in the future, but for the moment Ireland had its apple cake and ate it, too.
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