Live data from Hacker News

Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

phys.org

291–300 of 301 posts

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don’t think anybody disputes that the Bible is a not single book written at once. But the claim that any part of Genesis dates to the Exile is a weak historiographical claim, based primarily on a few pillars of very weak circumstantial evidence: a) we don’t have many physical examples dated to a prior time - but that’s not at all surprising; the vast supermajority of texts don’t survive, and many of the most…

Whenever you date the writing down of the early chapters of Genesis, it's clear that the flood story heavily copied directly from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The parallels, down to little details, are too strong to be simply due to similar stories floating around. I don't see why this should be called a "pious fraud." Babylon was a massive cultural center of that time, and the land of Israel was a relative backwater on it…

They wouldn’t have just been similar stories, they would have been descendants of the same story originating from the proto-Semitic people they both came from. We’re not talking about a coincidence, we’re talking about the same story.

Exactly as Romans and Greeks had basically the “same” stories, in most cases they were not copying from each other, they had the same source.

At any rate, as the example in your other comments shows, it doesn’t share the same “little details”, the little details are different.

> I don't see why this should be called a "pious fraud." Babylon was a massive cultural center of that time, and the land of Israel was a relative backwater on its periphery. Babylon would have exerted an enormous cultural influence on the surrounding peoples, including the Israelites.

Because you’re suggesting some Israelite in Babylon basically saw the stories and then inserted it into Genesis under different names, probably existing ones, and that everyone else just went along with it. That is, they all knew it was not part of their tradition and that some guy was just adding it in based on the Babylonian story but accepted the insertion anyway because…

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a PhD in physics and even physics itself is in a poor state, yet I totally get why all the other sciences envy physics: they're even worse

This is explained by complexity. The more components involved in a field, the less feasible the scientific method is. (E.g. math > physics > chemistry > materials science > cell biology > human biology > psychology > sociology)

Testability is also a big issue. It's extremely expensive, labor-intensive, and time-consuming to build a facility like the LHC to test physical theories and develop new ones. But that's nothing compared to how hard it is to conduct reproducible, unambiguous, and actionable psychological studies on large populations.

Ethical experimentation involving live human beings is always going to be one of science's greatest challenges, IMO. There are questions we're not allowed to ask and answers we're not allowed to use. That hasn't been true in physics since the Renaissance.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever you date the writing down of the early chapters of Genesis, it's clear that the flood story heavily copied directly from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The parallels, down to little details, are too strong to be simply due to similar stories floating around. I don't see why this should be called a "pious fraud." Babylon was a massive cultural center of that time, and the land of Israel was a relative backwater on it…

They wouldn’t have just been similar stories, they would have been descendants of the same story originating from the proto-Semitic people they both came from. We’re not talking about a coincidence, we’re talking about the same story. Exactly as Romans and Greeks had basically the “same” stories, in most cases they were not copying from each other, they had the same source. At any rate, as the example in your other c…

Most religions are syncretic. You're taking a very modern view of Judaism, as a very clearly defined set of beliefs that cannot just borrow from other religions. Early Judaism (if that's even the correct term her, because this was a very different religion from what we now know) was not even clearly monotheistic. The idea of borrowing stories from neighboring peoples (especially incredibly powerful neighbors with great cultural influence) would not have been as shocking as it would be nowadays.

> they would have been descendants of the same story originating from the proto-Semitic people they both came from.

The Epic of Gilgamesh predates Genesis by about 1500 years. The people who wrote Genesis would have known of the Epic of Gilgamesh. I do not find it convincing to hand-wave the identical details in the stories (like the story about beaching on a mountain and then releasing birds from the Ark to find dry land, until one doesn't return) as merely suggesting a common origin. Babylon was a superpower of the time, both politically and culturally. The Israelites were influenced by it.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#294
post #240
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So programs can affect the internal state of the computer, thus resulting in useful work being done which would otherwise not be done in the absence of said program. Which means programs do something, rather than nothing.

This is like claiming books change the world. In one sense they do, but in a a bit more real sense it’s people reading books who change the world. A crucial distinction.

To elaborate on the analogy:

Books cannot change the world if they lie unread on a shelf or are confiscated or impounded and kept out of people’s hands.

In the same way, software cannot be useful to you if your hardware will not run it.

Therefore we cannot think that by being programmers making software, we are directly helping people; we can only help those people who can, and will, run our software.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#295
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They almost certainly could, but also they would also almost certainly be prone to the same kind of embellishments of such stories as they are passed on.

The other quite reasonable hypothesis is that these are tales of the fairly rapid sea level rises that accompanied the end of the last ice age as the breaking of ice dams in the north released massive glacial floods into the North Atlantic and Pacific.

This is less reasonable: the sea rise was rapid by geological timescales, but hardly something you would notice as a massive change during a human lifetime.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn’t have just been similar stories, they would have been descendants of the same story originating from the proto-Semitic people they both came from. We’re not talking about a coincidence, we’re talking about the same story. Exactly as Romans and Greeks had basically the “same” stories, in most cases they were not copying from each other, they had the same source. At any rate, as the example in your other c…

Most religions are syncretic. You're taking a very modern view of Judaism, as a very clearly defined set of beliefs that cannot just borrow from other religions. Early Judaism (if that's even the correct term her, because this was a very different religion from what we now know) was not even clearly monotheistic. The idea of borrowing stories from neighboring peoples (especially incredibly powerful neighbors with gre…

> You're taking a very modern view of Judaism, as a very clearly defined set of beliefs that cannot just borrow from other religions. Early Judaism (if that's even the correct term her, because this was a very different religion from what we now know) was not even clearly monotheistic.

Yes, as I said:

> Indeed, it’s most commonly believed that the Israelite religion was not unique, but a simple development into monotheism from a normal localized Canaanite religion.

Early Judaism was obviously polytheistic. The Flood story is almost certainly a story that dates back to those times, well before the Exile.

That said, by the Babylonian Exile, Judaism was clearly monotheistic and not "syncretic" (that's not how syncretism works anyway).

> The Epic of Gilgamesh predates Genesis by about 1500 years.

This is the issue. You're conflating the current academic consensus (very rough and subject to change) on the composition of Genesis with "when did the Genesis stories originate among the Israelites." Nobody thinks Genesis was written ex nihilo by some priests in Babylon and pressed on the rest of the Jewish population. (If nothing else, this would make post-Exile events totally untenable: how did they convince the non-Exile Jews of...anything?)

> The people who wrote Genesis would have known of the Epic of Gilgamesh. I do not find it convincing to hand-wave the identical details in the stories (like the story about beaching on a mountain and then releasing birds from the Ark to find dry land, until one doesn't return) as merely suggesting a common origin.

There's nothing handwavy about this. This is exactly how it works, in religions and myths across the world. Sometimes we've been able to trace it very clearly, as with Indo-Europeans. The more closely related the peoples, the more their stories match up. Two Semitic peoples in the same region having two near-identical stories without them having borrowed from one another is the least surprising thing in the world; oral tradition actually holds up pretty well in most cases (as documented in the original article.) This is in fact clearly supported by the theory of the composition of Genesis by multiple authors, with very slightly different narratives.

If you want to be more technical about the composition of Genesis, opinions vary, but the current consensus holds there were three or four main authors: the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist, and the Priest. The only one of these believed to date to the Exile is the Priest, with all the others predating it. The earliest source is believed to be the Yahwist, supposed to be writing in the 800s BC. Critically, much of the Flood story and the details about birds are specifically believed to originate with the Yahwist source before the Exile period.

> Babylon was a superpower of the time, both politically and culturally. The Israelites were influenced by it.

Yes, as I specifically said:

> It’s possible that this did happen. But it’s also the case that Babylonian contact was not new in the Exile period. The Israelites didn’t exist in a vacuum, they were part of the tapestry of the wider Semitic world for their entire existence and would have had familiarity with all these stories and beliefs the entire time.

Either way, all the Semitic versions of the Flood myth likely depend on a Sumerian original, along with the general influence of Sumerian myth on Semitic belief. (Personally, I have no problem with supposing that it was based on some real event and then the tale grew in the telling, just as Gilgamesh was a real king.) It's of course conceivable that before the Exile the Canaanites and the Babylonians crosschecked each other's versions, but it's not at all necessary. There was never any reason for "late" contamination of the story by Babylonians; the pan-Semitic influence always existed, and whoever the proto-Israelites were, obviously they were wandering around somewhere concurrently with the other Semitic peoples.

At any rate, the Babylonians were very definitely on the downslope during the Exile period, as evidence by their permanent fall from notability after their conquest by the Persians at the end of it. They and Egypt were the two regional powers Judah was stuck between at the time. Israel, of course, was earlier destroyed by the Assyrians, who had been a definite superpower but saw their glory days end with Nineveh.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of feels like a local optima situation where they relied on memory so much that they didn't feel the need for writing. Either that or the fact that there was no writing for so long resulted in them specialising in memory techniques a lot.

We didn't evolve reading and writing. Literacy is just a recently developed hack. Memorization was the only way for the vast majority of human history.

Who is we?

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#298
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe you cite it? And what a shitty assumption to make of the writer, btw. And also, what the fuck kind of a condescending attitude to have for the English major? Maybe if you were an English major we wouldn't be posting all this nonsense right now.

Mr./Ms. greenheart, whoever you are, life is too short to have hostile conversations. As far as a condescending attitude---I did say they were underpaid and overworked, didn't I? When you are overworked don't you start to make mistakes as well? I sure do.

Hey buddy, I have a few English majors in my life and they are some of the best people and I would pick any of them over someone like you in a split second. I suggest taking some classes in the English major to keep yourself from becoming a complete POS, which what looks like is happening.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math is not a science. Math is fundamentally opposite of science. In science nothing can be proven. Proof is exclusively the domain of mathematics. The Lack of proof is foundational to science, it’s built into the core axiom of the scientific method. This axiom is actually the reason why science is so “bad” because nothing can really be confirmed. But something like psychology is on a whole different level because of…

Following in the true style of mathematics, I propose that you two actually agree, and that math has 0 of parent's "components involved in a field".

Nah in his reply he’s talking about complexity.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#300
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had been doing the ritual regularly enough to preserve it for over 12,000 years in a relatively small range, it seems surprising that the excavations didn't turn up way more instances than it did. They can find 2 perfect instances within centuries of each other 12kya in the same excavation, then it just teleports without a trace to the 1880s? This sounds more like a birthday paradox. There are so many rituals…

Its a stick in the ground. People might have tripped over thousands of them, and millions lost to the elements and time. This find was only noticed because someone with the right specialized knowledge was looking in a specific location for artifacts, bothered to test the stick, and managed to link it to an obscure document written 150 years earlier, itself amazing that this particular ritual from this particular regi…

> People might have tripped over thousands of them

Obviously not, because when these guys tripped over them, they were struck enough to then spend years looking for explanations.

> unlike the unknown but huge number that were not.

The more that are not documented, the more plausible it becomes that vaguely similar rituals which yield the same residue may exist in many times and places, and enter into the sum total of rituals available for birthday-paradox collision. Arguing that it must be the same with zero intervening evidence is like arguing that that because an Aboriginal word for dog is 'dog' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbabaram_language#Word_for_%22...) both Mbararam and English must be descended from the same language which existed hundreds of thousands of years ago and have remarkably preserved one word for all that time. What are the odds?!

Post reply on HN