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EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#291

Post by palata »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #279
palata wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism does not require an authoritarian state, period. It's much larger than that, and it is a gradient. Just like "not being socialist" does not mean that you are libertarian: you can be a moderate liberal. For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. You can have more moderate forms of socialism. I find it interesting…

> For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. Sure, but that's not socialism. That's state capitalism at most. There is not gradient. If society is socialist then as per definition and as explained there must be authoritarianism to suppress any private initiative. The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before:…

> The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before: "socialist parties" are no longer socialist:

That's not what the sentence you quoted says. Do you speak french? Just to know (respectfully) if we need to debate the meaning of that sentence, or if I need to translate it for you.

That sentence precisely means that there is a gradient.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#292

Post by sva_ »

hcfman wrote: post #288
tmtvl wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is: EU citizens can engage their peers in dialogue on how this behaviour is terrible and they can try their darnedest to convince their peers to never vote for politicians who are part of the problem.

Yes that will work. Just like referendums work in the Netherlands for example. 90% the population vote in a referumdum against a particular agreement. The government voted for it anyway and then got rid of referendums. That's how effective and democratic this all is.

Could you be more specific which case this was?

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#293

Post by mytailorisrich »

palata wrote: post #290
mytailorisrich wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As said, most socialist parties in Europe are no longer socialist... There is no gradient. Either you want private ownership or you want socialised ownership. I think you are not quite clear about what "socialism" means because there are so many "socialist" parties in Europe that have not actually been socialist for 70+ years... For instance in France, with people from the socialist party always referred to as "les s…

Are you from the US, and trying to tell me that what EU people have been meaning by "socialism" in the last "70+ years" is wrong because that's not your definition? My feeling is that US people tend to struggle understanding that there are cultural differences in the world, and think that "socialism" has to mean what they understand from their US-centric point of view. "Socialism" is a bad word in the US, not at all…

Well, I am French, so really my comments were factual and a history lesson, really... "Socialism" has a precise meaning, as described several times in my previous comments. Socialism isn't social democracy.

Socialism is a bad word in the EU for most people in Western Europe who have some perspective and understanding of what it means (again which is usually not the same as the parties that have "socialist" in their names advocate), and certainly for the people in Eastern Europe who actually experienced it firsthand.

Perhaps there is a generational issue as well. When I grew up there were socialist countries in half of Europe and the French Communist Party was good friend with them and the big guys in Moscow (You know, the capital of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics). Now, anyone under 35 was born after socialism disappeared from Europe so perhaps lack understanding, including that it is not a fairytale but an utter failure (hence shift away from it).

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#294

Post by mytailorisrich »

palata wrote: post #291
mytailorisrich wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, saying that public transportation should be public (i.e. belong to the state) does not mean that the state is authoritarian. Sure, but that's not socialism. That's state capitalism at most. There is not gradient. If society is socialist then as per definition and as explained there must be authoritarianism to suppress any private initiative. The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before:…

> The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before: "socialist parties" are no longer socialist: That's not what the sentence you quoted says. Do you speak french? Just to know (respectfully) if we need to debate the meaning of that sentence, or if I need to translate it for you. That sentence precisely means that there is a gradient.

I am French, with an understanding of what words actually mean. This article is highly misleading, to be polite. Socialism that has converted to liberal democracy and no longer seeks to replace the market economy is simply not socialism by definition, it's basically social democracy. That's what I have been writing and repeating: It's not because it's called "socialist party" that it is socialist, and that has been the case for decades. Maybe you're too young to grasp this fully.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#295

Post by sunaookami »

nurple wrote: post #234
constantcrying wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And at every stage people will talk about how horrible EU is as if this has already passed, just like last time. Even the idea makes me loose all faith in the institution. How can you be okay with people as deranged as this making rules about the future of your country? "Not everyone is insane", just isn't a particularly strong point.

Could instead be like the US where citizens aren't even allowed to read parts of the spying laws that apply to them. The endgame being to surreptitiously bug every device and application with local scanning; changes in ToS that allow this invasion are helpfully conflated with the same language a corpo would use if they wanted to train models on your content.

The documents for chat control got leaked by the press. Nothing was released by the EU.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#296

Post by palata »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #293
palata wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you from the US, and trying to tell me that what EU people have been meaning by "socialism" in the last "70+ years" is wrong because that's not your definition? My feeling is that US people tend to struggle understanding that there are cultural differences in the world, and think that "socialism" has to mean what they understand from their US-centric point of view. "Socialism" is a bad word in the US, not at all…

Well, I am French, so really my comments were factual and a history lesson, really... "Socialism" has a precise meaning, as described several times in my previous comments. Socialism isn't social democracy. Socialism is a bad word in the EU for most people in Western Europe who have some perspective and understanding of what it means (again which is usually not the same as the parties that have "socialist" in their n…

Right. Then it feels like we only disagree on the surface :-). You seem to say "Socialism as it used to be has disappeared" and I say "Socialism has evolved".

My original reaction towards US people is that I really feel like whatever is left on Barack Obama sounds authoritarian to them. You say "public transport should be owned by the state" and they say "you deserve to go to jail, you socialist" (I exaggerate obviously, just to make my point).

They tend to forget that there is a world of opinions to the left of Obama (which, again, is on the right wing in my book), and that those opinions are still compatible with democracy.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#297

Post by palata »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #294
palata wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article in French says the same thing as I wrote before: "socialist parties" are no longer socialist: That's not what the sentence you quoted says. Do you speak french? Just to know (respectfully) if we need to debate the meaning of that sentence, or if I need to translate it for you. That sentence precisely means that there is a gradient.

I am French, with an understanding of what words actually mean. This article is highly misleading, to be polite. Socialism that has converted to liberal democracy and no longer seeks to replace the market economy is simply not socialism by definition, it's basically social democracy. That's what I have been writing and repeating: It's not because it's called "socialist party" that it is socialist, and that has been t…

I answered in another one of your comment :-).

You think that it's not socialism anymore (which is fair, "socialisme democratique" is not "socialism" anymore), and I say that socialism has evolved ("socialisme democratique" is an evolution of socialism that works in democracies). In the end it's just a difference in the definition.

The fact remains that the US don't really have the equivalent of "Parti Socialiste": the democrats would be on the right wing in France, right?

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#298

Post by mytailorisrich »

palata wrote: post #296
mytailorisrich wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I am French, so really my comments were factual and a history lesson, really... "Socialism" has a precise meaning, as described several times in my previous comments. Socialism isn't social democracy. Socialism is a bad word in the EU for most people in Western Europe who have some perspective and understanding of what it means (again which is usually not the same as the parties that have "socialist" in their n…

Right. Then it feels like we only disagree on the surface :-). You seem to say "Socialism as it used to be has disappeared" and I say "Socialism has evolved". My original reaction towards US people is that I really feel like whatever is left on Barack Obama sounds authoritarian to them. You say "public transport should be owned by the state" and they say "you deserve to go to jail, you socialist" (I exaggerate obviou…

Well, no. "Socialism has evolved" is nonsensical. Socialism has a definition so either that's what you want or that's not what you want... Socialism has disappeared from government and from what most "socialist parties" actually seek, which is in fact social democracy.

There are still parties that seek socialism, or groups within parties that overall do not.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#299

Post by rvnx »

harperlee wrote: post #278
rvnx wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same, it solves a marginal problem (people that throw away on the highway only the plastic caps, and somehow keep separate the bottle), in an absurd way that punishes all the nice users, again, just to solve a small % of very cases. The guys who somehow enjoy throwing away plastic caps, will likely remove it anyway. The same with the spying, all users will suffer, but those who want to work around it, will find a…

> it makes driving more dangerous now, as you need two hands to drink from a water bottle. What? That is absurd, you don't need two hands just because the lid remains attached.

The lid scratches your nose or eye so you need to use the second hand to hold the lid

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#300

Post by salawat »

rekoil wrote: post #160
rvnx wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same, it solves a marginal problem (people that throw away on the highway only the plastic caps, and somehow keep separate the bottle), in an absurd way that punishes all the nice users, again, just to solve a small % of very cases. The guys who somehow enjoy throwing away plastic caps, will likely remove it anyway. The same with the spying, all users will suffer, but those who want to work around it, will find a…

Punish is a strong word, it slightly inconveniences all "the nice users". It's really not that big of a deal honestly, you unscrew the bottle, flip the cap up (it kinda locks like that and stays out of your way in one of the designs I've seen, in the other it's just attached and can easily be kept out of the way with a finger), then you drink, I fail to see how you suddenly need two hands as opposed to before...

>Punish is a strong word, it slightly inconveniences all "the nice users".

Stop using weak language and call a spade a spade.

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