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Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

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Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#291

Post by s1artibartfast »

saagarjha wrote: post #281
s1artibartfast wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are torturing the word optimal so I think it is meaningless to discuss that feature. I also reject your view that everything is social tradeoffs. I think it is a extremely narrow perspective that completely ignores culture, norms, and behavior.

That’s literally what it means in this context. Apple puts up with some amount of crime because doing so is optimal for them. Driving crime to zero would cost them more money than it would save.

It is the best option of those available to apple.

That doesnt mean it is the best solution theoretically possible.

If I threatened you with the choice between death and paying me money you would probably choose the money. However, surely you think it would be better not to be threatened at all.

I think it is extremely closeminded to think that there is nothing that nothing else could be changed outside of apples control.

It is absurd to think that this is the optimal configuration of society and culture.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#292

Post by ForOldHack »

deadbabe wrote: post #116
segmondy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. Since there's less crime in affluent areas, the police actually have time to investigate what get's ignored in other areas. By also solving these crimes, it tells the criminals to avoid those areas, it's kind of a feedback loop.

Is there a map of police response times somewhere? Sounds like this would make a good proxy for a map of affluent areas and would be useful for getting directions and stuff that avoid bad areas when you’re in unfamiliar places.

Just think of it: I say a car getting a parking ticket, while thieves were removing its catalytic converter. The dystopian future of having to pay cash for police services is closer than you consider, or even think. The "Community liaison" who showed up simply said "That is not their job."

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#293

Post by jjav »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #290
jjav wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The absolute optimum is zero. Define optimum. It would be trivially easy for Apple to make theft at their stores absolutely zero. How is that optimum though? The same measures that make theft zero would also drive away pretty much all legitimate business. Is that optimum for you?

The optimum is the most desirable situation or outcome. It depends on the factors you can change, and those you assume are constant. Surely you agree it would be best if Apple could have no theft, and no extra costs? There are factors within apples control and factors outside apples control. Apple has limits to what it can do, but that doesnt mean that no better solutions exist outside the control of apple. There is…

> Surely you agree it would be best if Apple could have no theft, and no extra costs?

I'd also like a unicorn and absolute eternal world peace, if we're wishing for unrealistic things.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#294

Post by Gibbon1 »

ForOldHack wrote: post #292
deadbabe wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a map of police response times somewhere? Sounds like this would make a good proxy for a map of affluent areas and would be useful for getting directions and stuff that avoid bad areas when you’re in unfamiliar places.

Just think of it: I say a car getting a parking ticket, while thieves were removing its catalytic converter. The dystopian future of having to pay cash for police services is closer than you consider, or even think. The "Community liaison" who showed up simply said "That is not their job."

I over use the word but the idea that property crimes are merely a matter for the insurance company is the most neoliberal thing ever.

You can imagine an alternative system where if someone steals your cat the government has to pay for that.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#295

Post by bredren »

tdumitrescu wrote: post #184
bredren wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just read (by audiobook) two great fiction works by Colson Whitehead that include some of these ideas, Crook Manifesto then is prequel Harlem Shuffle. Great stuff.

Nitpicking: Crook Manifesto is the sequel to Harlem Shuffle, which came out years earlier. There's a third installment planned.

Ah, yes. I didn’t know about the third planned. CM I thought was brilliantly written. Just a joy to follow down each little flashback.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#296

Post by s1artibartfast »

jjav wrote: post #293
s1artibartfast wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optimum is the most desirable situation or outcome. It depends on the factors you can change, and those you assume are constant. Surely you agree it would be best if Apple could have no theft, and no extra costs? There are factors within apples control and factors outside apples control. Apple has limits to what it can do, but that doesnt mean that no better solutions exist outside the control of apple. There is…

> Surely you agree it would be best if Apple could have no theft, and no extra costs? I'd also like a unicorn and absolute eternal world peace, if we're wishing for unrealistic things.

It is hardly unrealistic. You see cities, states, and countries where this type of thing simply doesnt happen, and others where it is a repeat problem.

It isnt like blatant and normalized property theft is an unchangeable universal constant.

Even in my local area, I can huge differences between areas a dozen miles apart, and have seen huge changes over time.

This is why I think it is silly to think nothing could be done differently, and whatever is being done is the best possible solution in every way.

This is basically saying every choice is perfect, and there is no room for improvement. This is defeatist and frankly wrong.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#297

Post by Dylan16807 »

kube-system wrote: post #287
Dylan16807 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ? The comment literally says: > States with prolific death penalties just skip the religious angle. But read the two sentences before that. They're making a complete comparison without mentioning death penalties at all, and without any placeholders that could be filled in by a later sentence. The third sentence mentioning death penalties does not retroactively change what the first two sentences were talking about.…

Read it in context again, it is commentary on the US prison system as a whole. > But limiting hours and/or giving more of the money to the actual prisoners doing the labor should be enough to fix that moral hazard. Maybe but it doesn't address the immorality of the situation to begin with. There's a simple solution, here: eliminate the prison loophole for slavery. There can still be labor in prisons, it should just f…

The critical sentence is "The 13th amendment codifies slavery into our prison system and few things are as barbaric in my mind."

I can see your argument that the thing being called barbaric is the prison system in general, but I'm still pretty sure the thing being called barbaric by that wording is specifically the slavery part.

> Maybe but it doesn't address the immorality of the situation to begin with. There's a simple solution, here: eliminate the prison loophole for slavery. There can still be labor in prisons, it should just follow prevailing labor law.

That might be best but I'm not sure if it's obviously the best option.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#298

Post by s1artibartfast »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #283
s1artibartfast wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the relative optimal loss given the alternatives presented. The absolute optimum is zero. >It being easy for people to grab thousands of dollars worth of stuff and run out of the store is a choice they made intentionally. Risking rape or death when I leave my house is a choice I make intentionally. That doesn't mean that murder is optimal or should be tolerated. There are straight forward ways crime could be r…

The optimum risk level is never zero. There comes a point where the cost of averting the risk is greater than the cost of the risk. Consider my standard example of this: electric power. We insist nuclear plants be insanely safe, making them uneconomic, making us use far more dangerous sources of power instead.

The word optimum only makes sense in context of limitations and assumptions, which are subject to change.

For the sake of argument, lets assume nuclear power is the safest option available given current technology.

That doesnt mean that no improvement is possible and we should reject alternative design that are even cheaper and safer poses no benefit.

Just because something is the best choice available to apple doesn't mean it is the best choice available to society.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#299

Post by saagarjha »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #291
saagarjha wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s literally what it means in this context. Apple puts up with some amount of crime because doing so is optimal for them. Driving crime to zero would cost them more money than it would save.

It is the best option of those available to apple. That doesnt mean it is the best solution theoretically possible. If I threatened you with the choice between death and paying me money you would probably choose the money. However, surely you think it would be better not to be threatened at all. I think it is extremely closeminded to think that there is nothing that nothing else could be changed outside of apples con…

What do you have in mind?

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#300

Post by WalterBright »

mandmandam wrote: post #224
WalterBright wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was always enforcement of the law. Banditry, murder, etc., had to be dealt with. And sheriffs predated this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff_of_Nottingham_(positio... The Code of Hammurabi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi Wouldn't that be useless without a mechanism of enforcement?

The Code of Hammurabi has more in it about protecting property than people, so... Also, you've conflated 'enforcement of the law' with 'the law protects property more than people'. Why? For most of history the people with the power to create and enforce laws were also the people with the most property. This isn't some big mystery.

And yet it did include protecting people. That old "eye for an eye", for example.
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