US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it • Hacker News Board

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#291

Post by dlitz » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 2:35 PM UTC

hieronymusN wrote: post #18

Fizzadar wrote: post #4

This feels similar to the Megaupload case; America desperately throwing its weight around outside it's borders, with a total disregard for the law. And, just like the Megaupload case, they have fucked up big time. Why does the American govt. feel it has the right to choose who can become a nuclear power or not anyway?

To play Devil's Advocate: How did they "fuck up big time"? From what I can tell from press coverage Stuxnet did exactly what it was supposed to do - damage centrifuges at Natanz.

IIRC, it was supposed to put Iran's nuclear program behind by several years, but because it escaped into the wild---and thus endured far greater public scrutiny than it would have otherwise---the Iranians found out about it much earlier than they were intended to, so it didn't have quite the impact that the US/Israel were hoping for.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#292

Post by phaus » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 2:40 PM UTC

dfc wrote: post #274

phaus wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. There was a lot of resistance from generals who were well versed in conventional warfare. Many of them thought that guerrilla warfare was either cowardly or somehow below us. Richard Marcenko, the founder of the now defunct SEAL Team 6 (got transformed into the Developmental Warfare Group) discusses the attitudes he encountered throughout his navy career in some of his earlier novels. (he does write…

Given your knowledge of Marcinko's reputation I'm surprised you used him as your reference material. When Marcinko formed ST6 he selected the first members from an already existing specwar community. The same thing can be said for Beckwith and the creation of SFOD-D which predated ST6.

I was using him as a reference because he experienced first hand the discrimination that the special operations community faced from many high ranking officers and even politicians.

I wasn't trying to say that the SEALS were the first SF unit, I guess I wasn't very clear. Most of the SF type units were around in some form well before the Vietnam War. Even the SEALS were around in the 40's, they just weren't called SEALS yet.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#293

Post by phaus » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 2:44 PM UTC

marshray wrote: post #280

phaus wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one good example that our military underestimated the importance of cyber-security until recently, it is that the U.S. Army Cyber Command was just established in 2009. Before this happened, there was definitely work being done by the Army in this field, but it wasn't the large-scale, coordinated effort that such an important threat demands. In the years leading up to the creation of the Cyber Command, ther…

I hope you realize that NSA, perhaps the biggest and most capable information security organizations in the world has always been under the Pentagon. It's absurd to suggest the US attention to data security started with the establishment of "Cyber Command". My personal view is that it's a dangerous experiment in ineptitude allow the Pentagon to "defend in cyberspace" US networks. Most of the people who are tossing ar…

I didn't say that the creation of CYBERCOM marked the beginning of U.S. involvement in cyberspace. It was created just a few years ago, because our government's leadership felt that we needed to do far more than we have been. The NSA is very good at what they do, but unless they expand dramatically, other organizations are going to have to be formed.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#294

Post by knowtheory » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #281

cdi wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>exploiting their countries. any evidence for that? In my understanding the USSR was dominating eastern bloc countries, hindering their democratic economic development by enforcing archaic hierarchical undemocratic regime. Exploiting? I haven't heard about that. Countries were pretty autonomous in all things unrelated to ideology/politics.

I find it disturbing that so many people are so very willing to ignore or defend the atrocities of communism in the 20th century. Just after the end of WWII the Soviets adopted a "plunder" policy with regard to occupied Eastern European countries. Forcing them to produce huge quantities of raw materials and industrial goods to be used within the USSR, extracting as much wealth from the beleaguered post-war economies…

Who exactly is defending what the Soviets did? I'm skeptical that there's a pile of people out there who are gungho about what a great job Stalin & co did.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#295

Post by mitjak » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 3:23 PM UTC

cdi wrote: post #289

InclinedPlane wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it disturbing that so many people are so very willing to ignore or defend the atrocities of communism in the 20th century. Just after the end of WWII the Soviets adopted a "plunder" policy with regard to occupied Eastern European countries. Forcing them to produce huge quantities of raw materials and industrial goods to be used within the USSR, extracting as much wealth from the beleaguered post-war economies…

From your link: "Initially, COMECON served as cover for the Soviet taking of materials and equipment from the rest of the Eastern Bloc, but the balance changed when the Soviets became net subsidizers of the rest of the Bloc by the 1970s via an exchange of low cost raw materials in return for shoddily manufactured finished goods.[46]" So it looks like they used eastern bloc resources to restore Soviet Union devastated…

Explainable action? I'm lost for words. Also I'm Russian.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#296

Post by wissler » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 3:49 PM UTC

Wrap wrote: post #269

sk5t wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had a downvote button, I would exercise it on your steadfast refusal to acknowledge that the Cold War is so-called for the absence of direct military conflict between the armies of the two quarreling states. Wikipedia does not back your definition, as the Wiki entry leaves room for espionage, sabotage, and other actions that one might consider an "attack" but certainly do not force a declaration of war, mobiliza…

Firstly, talking about Wiki definitions is the wrong thing to focus on. Secondly, the Cold War is a misnomer, the US was very much involved in an open confrontation with the Chinese+Soviets in Korea, and to a lesser extent with their proxies in Vietnam later on. Yes, the Korean war was fought under the aegis of a resolution issued by the UN security council, but it was a 'hot' war, and part of a broad push against Co…

Firstly, I wasn't only talking about Wiki definitions, I had a more basic argument that is being ignored.

Secondly, the Cold War has two possible referents among political scientists (see the link I posted), and the one in question is not the Soviet one.

Now, these are basic facts that you are clearly wrong about. But I will get downvoted anyway. There is something very wrong with you people.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#297

Post by wissler » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 3:52 PM UTC

sk5t wrote: post #221

wissler wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sabotage is not "indirect", it is very direct, and what's more, it's not even listed on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_war_(general_term) You're wrong, but at least you're not a coward.

Surely you don't expect the WP article to list every act that might be compatible with the idea of a "cold war"... I feel you are trolling a bit. Sabotage is still a plausibly deniable act--contrasted with, say, rolling a tank across one's adversary's border. Stuxnet is a weapon of sabotage, it is fairly direct, and yet it is not the same as an open declaration of war.

I can't believe the level of dishonesty here. The point is obvious: NONE of the acts cited by the WP article were acts of violence.

Did you miss out on Sesame Street? "One of these things are not like the other..."

No I'm not trolling. I am expected to be treated like a troll by the herd here however.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#298

Post by WayneDB » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 3:53 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #215

kbolino wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My original response was more thoughtful, but I felt that summed up my point better. The question is not what's possible, but what's likely and how much it will cost. If the likelihood is low and the cost is small, then you cannot justify extravagant preparation. An attack against civilian infrastructure is terrorism no matter who does it. It may be a singular event, part of a chain of attacks, or a prelude to a full…

You continue to not really be thinking about my point, insisting on framing it in a pre-canned terrorism argument. I am explicitly talking about high-cost events, and at best you can call the probability unknown , for things like a biological attack or a computer attack that perhaps even accidentally ends up taking out some very important part of the infrastructure. We already have good reasons to be concerned that a…

"We already have good reasons to be concerned that a high-cost biological attack could be launched out of someone's literal garage, and it is not an irrational fear."

It's easy for people to just pick up a knife at a restaurant and stab someone too. People don't spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about this though because it just doesn't happen that often.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#299

Post by wissler » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 3:54 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #238

wissler wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to hit the downvote button. It'd show more courage and intelligence to counter with an actual argument. Incidentally, Wikipedia backs my definition of "cold": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_war_(general_term) "A cold war or cold warfare is a state of conflict between nations that does not involve direct military action but is pursued primarily through economic and political actions, propaganda, acts of e…

> acts of espionage Are you claiming that stuxnet is not an act of espionage? > Indirect means indirect By your definition, embargoes are 'direct' because they are not levied against proxy nations.

Stuxnet was very clearly sabotage. I can't believe the herd here. Downvote away.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#300

Post by WayneDB » Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 4:07 PM UTC

factorizer wrote: post #285

Wrap wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing Iran to Nazi Germany? That's a blatant strawman in no need of answering, and for being a German it looks like you learned the wrong lesson; it's ok for someone to victimize others because they were once the victims? Also, what do you mean by "the political system of Israel and the way it's society works, is something worth fighting for"? A political system & way of life built on the subjugation of a people,…

I think some points of clarification are in order: I do not compare Iran to Nazi Germany, this would mean to deny the uniqueness of the holocaust in human history. I meant, as a German I have a moral obligation to support Israel in its fight for existance. If officials of another country talk about wiping Israel from the map, i get suspicious. You don't? I hope not. To state, that Israels political system is built on…

You sound like a Zionist shill.