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Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

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Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#291

Post by treflop »

nkozyra wrote: post #250
9dev wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re romanticising woodworking a bit here. A large saw is specifically built to allow doing a single, precise cut, in exactly the same way, over and over again. The tools are absolutely made to prevent you from messing up the various ways, it’s just that you don’t use the professionals tools at home. And indeed that’s something I’d apply to software: both hobbyists and small companies are tempted to use pro…

> A large saw is specifically built to allow doing a single, precise cut, in exactly the same way, over and over again. Ignoring hand tools, which give you precise, tactile control ... I'd still argue with this. There are tools for specific things and they're meant to reduce error. But a router (woodworking) can be used to do half the stuff you want/need to do. A table saw can make straight cuts, rabbets, joinery. Th…

Programming tools are no different. All tools are like this.

OP's complaint is about syntactical differences and that's just because his team doesn't agree with him.

And tbh, to me, the fun creative part in programming lies in architecture, not how I space my code. With woodworking, the creative part is how I put it all together but not the actual cutting part.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#293

Post by isametry »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #290

Nothing destroys your love of a hobby, even one that you are passionately (or even obsessively) dedicated to, like making it your job. I LOVE riding bikes but all the BS of working in software is preferable to trying to support my love of bikes within the broader industry of bikes. The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck.

Isn’t “hobbyist” the exact word you’re looking for?

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#294

Post by _yb2s »

_huayra_ wrote: post #285
colecut wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you inherited woodworking tools from your grandfather, I'm assuming that either your grandfather or father taught you some woodworking skills? I grew up on the computer since I was a preteen. My dad moved 2000 miles away when I was 11. Every job I've ever had since I was 14 was web/software related and I am nearly 39. I feel like I have no practical skills outside of computers and the idea of building things with…

I've always recommended hobbies that meet the following criteria 1. Don't require you to interact with screens 2. Require your full attention (e.g. if you were listening to a podcast while doing it, you wouldn't remember a single thing they were talking about) 3. Has a social aspect, but is also possible to do on your own 4. Preferably physical 5. Preferably has some level of "controllable danger/risk", e.g. mountain…

Great criteria! I strongly recommend sailing also as a hobby meeting these criteria- although wind surfing is a type of sailing. Zero equipment or money is required because most people that race sailboats are always looking for crew, and are happy to take on a novice that is excited to learn.

I think people often turn away from sailing because it's seen as an expensive elitist thing for wealthy people, but the truth is the polar opposite of that- most people in the sailing community are working class and often have either small dinghies or older boats you can get for a few hundred dollars and easily maintain yourself. I paid $800 for my first working sailboat, and the first yacht club I joined had a literal garden shed full of rusty hand tools for a "clubhouse."

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#295

Post by hinkley »

ravenstine wrote: post #52
sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

When code formatters were new, they insisted on vertical in addition to horizontal spacing rules, and that pissed a lot of wise people off.

These days they are pretty good at preserving vertical separation if it already exists and adding it if it’s missing.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#296

Post by [deleted] »

sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

[deleted]

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#297

Post by hinkley »

jimbokun wrote: post #256
ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

How you choose to add whitespace to your code is not a meaningful outlet for creativity. Linters are a great tool for eliminating bike shedding. I don't think wood working per se gives you more flexibility than building software. It's wood working as an individual, not part of a team, so you can make your own decisions and not answer to anyone. If you were a one man software consultant you would have the same amount…

It’s devex. Not for you, but for the reader. It’s part of the craft. We can argue about whether craftsmanship is creative or skill, but at the end of the day it’s satisfaction that they are chasing. Satisfaction they are denied at work.

Not that they can’t find at work. It’s actively taken away from them.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#298

Post by Arainach »

ravenstine wrote: post #225
cjonas wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your company not just use an automatic formatter? Set a prettier config, format the entire codebase and never have to deal with another formatting change in a PR ever again.

There's formatting, and there's linting. But my issue with formatting, while great most of the time, is that sometimes I want to violate it, and tooling around automatic formatting and format validation is usually installed with the intention that it is 100% correct all the time. Sorry, but as a senior programmer, sometimes it really should be up to me to decide whether code belongs on a single line, and I don't want…

On the contrary, as a senior developer you should be able to look at and see the team-wide benefits of consistency. You don't have to handhold new junior devs to learn the style, you don't need to watch their PRs to see if they're being consistent, and you don't need to argue with other senior devs about whether something should be on a single line or not. You just let the automatic formatter do its thing.

Being a senior eng isn't about always knowing what's right, it's about knowing how to keep the team moving efficiently.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#299

Post by Arainach »

ravenstine wrote: post #226
Arainach wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguing about what 5% is appropriate is a significant distraction. I do not believe that any benefits from allowing these discrepancies are superior to the reduced mental load in authoring, reading, and reviewing code of "the linter is automatic and true". If a rule can be written into a linter, simply have it automatically formatted and never argue about it again. It eliminates entire classes of argument.

> Arguing about what 5% is appropriate is a significant distraction. Yes. > If a rule can be written into a linter, simply have it automatically formatted and never argue about it again. That is unless one believes to have good reason to violate that rule, in which case suddenly time is being spent having practically the same conversation in this part of the thread that I started.

The point of automatic formatters is that they are universally enforced. There is no violation of the rule, even if you have a "good reason". If you have a pattern of good reasons, you can write to whoever controls your team's coding standards/linter rules and suggest a tweak, but you never have one-off violations, you just accept the automatic format.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#300

Post by hinkley »

9dev wrote: post #235
ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

I think you’re romanticising woodworking a bit here. A large saw is specifically built to allow doing a single, precise cut, in exactly the same way, over and over again. The tools are absolutely made to prevent you from messing up the various ways, it’s just that you don’t use the professionals tools at home. And indeed that’s something I’d apply to software: both hobbyists and small companies are tempted to use pro…

Highly compensated people doing manual labor for fun are romanticizing woodworking. Full stop.

Trying to de-romanticize it means you have absolutely no idea what motivates most of us.

Signed, someone with restored antique Stanley wood planes, Japanese saws and who drools over Lee Valley product reviews.

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