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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

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Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#291

Post by ra7 »

judge2020 wrote: post #290
ra7 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said they are not safer than humans like Tesla likes to claim. The methodology is extremely dubious and it’s very easy to debunk it for anyone with a basic understanding of statistics. You claim it’s true because have anecdotes and personal experiences. You also say there are no crashes. But there are crashes. We just don’t know if FSD was engaged at the time because, again, Tesla doesn’t reveal it. Go through the…

If you don't like Tesla's methodology, what data do you need to determine how much more unsafe Teslas are compared to humans? You sound like you have the data: > Go through the NHTSA public database, there are dozens and dozens of Tesla ADAS crashes. Those are just the reported ones. Why hasn't anyone else, or you, directly published conflicting data to show that it's less safe? "debunking" some statistics might be c…

> what data do you need to determine how much more unsafe Teslas are compared to humans?

Tesla should start by first reporting disengagement data to CA DMV like every other self driving company. It shows FSD's rate of progress.

Then they should take all their crashes, normalize for different factors I mentioned earlier and then make a comparison. See how Waymo does it: https://waymo.com/blog/2023/12/waymo-significantly-outperfor.... They have multiple white papers on their methodology. Go through it, if you're interested to see what apples-to-apples comparison looks like.

> Why hasn't anyone else, or you, directly published conflicting data to show that it's less safe?

Because Tesla redacts every single reported crash to point that it's useless. Is FSD enabled or Autopilot? Not reported. FSD version? Redacted. Injury? Unknown. Description? Redacted. Good luck trying to glean any information from it. This is by design to prevent independent analysis of their performance.

Be transparent like everyone else. You know it's fishy when they're actively trying to hide things.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#292

Post by foobiekr »

cptcobalt wrote: post #81

This is a sensationalized hit piece against Tesla Autopilot. It is definitely unfortunate the drunk employee operating the car was involved in a crash, that at least from the wp reporting sounds avoidable—Autopilot active or not. Any death is unfortunate, and an opportunity to improve vehicle safety. Tesla's Q4 2023 stats should speak for themselves: > In the 4th quarter, we recorded one crash for every 5.39 million…

Stop falling for Tesla's cherrypicked statistics.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#293

Post by bbradley406 »

samatman wrote: post #258
aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FSD has a better track record than drunk drivers. We don't know that.

We do, in fact, know that.

You only get "recorded" as a drunk driver if you crash or cause a situation, drive erratically, cops are called, breathalyzers etc. Obviously I'm not condoning drunk driving, but you are looking at an extremely skewed set of circumstances, much like driving during daylight on California streets with no weather for FSD.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#294

Post by ec109685 »

bombcar wrote: post #212
ec109685 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teslas don’t require much force at all to disengage.

The Kia lane following, if anything, is a bit too weak (it follows more lazily than I would) but it certainly doesn't require any major force to overcome it - and most important - it does NOT disengage if you nudge it back to the right place, it just accepts the new normal and keeps going. Similarly it's smart enough to NOT disengage cruise control if you hit the gas, but will if you tap the brakes (which you don't o…

Tesla doesn’t let you alter the car’s course without enough force to disengage.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#295

Post by [deleted] »

ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#296

Post by leetgirl83 »

ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

He was not on FSD. The software had unfortunately never been downloaded. I say “unfortunately”, because the accident probably would not have happened if FSD had been engaged - Elon Musk

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1757652781010497798?s=20

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#297

Post by loceng »

ra7 wrote: post #249
loceng wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't all Tesla vehicles have the highest safety ratings ever? I guess maybe though something being less dangerous isn't the same as something being relatively more safe?

Those safety ratings don't assess FSD performance.

You're missing or avoiding my point?

Comparing similar accidents regardless of FSD or not - a Tesla's occupants are arguably kept safer, would fair better than being in any other vehicle, right?

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#298

Post by cnity »

itishappy wrote: post #183
cnity wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though. There are also a lot of cases where a line ease off to the side in a turn-off that would guide the lane assisted vehicle off the road. Just do a google search for these kinds of cases. This technology is immature and dangerously fails in a lot of cases already.

> There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though. You are legally required to in the US. Edit: I'm not entirely confident in this. You are legally required to signal a turn. Lane changes may not meet the definition of a turn. In NYS where I live lane changes are indeed included.

I'm in the UK, to be fair, but it is common here when doing roadworks on a motorway to close one side of the motorway and set up cones which guide traffic onto the other side to share the "wrong" side of the motorway lanes (divided by cones). When entering the roadworks area and switch to the other side, this necessarily means crossing boundaries, but indicating at this stage would be weird and nobody does it.

A relation of mine was renting a car with lane assist and it nearly drove him into the cones by way of refusal to cross the boundary (until it conceded control to the driver).

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#299

Post by ra7 »

loceng wrote: post #297
ra7 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those safety ratings don't assess FSD performance.

You're missing or avoiding my point? Comparing similar accidents regardless of FSD or not - a Tesla's occupants are arguably kept safer, would fair better than being in any other vehicle, right?

You’re making an entirely irrelevant point. They’d fare better if they were in a bus too.

We’re talking about cause of the accident here, not what happens after one.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#300

Post by rpy »

leetgirl83 wrote: post #296
ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

He was not on FSD. The software had unfortunately never been downloaded. I say “unfortunately”, because the accident probably would not have happened if FSD had been engaged - Elon Musk https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1757652781010497798?s=20

Oh. Well he always truthfully and accurately represents the situation so I guess that’s the end of that.
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