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How to hire low experience, high potential people

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Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#291

We built Fly.io resume-blind and without interviews, hiring people at every level of experience without having to make decisions based on that experience. We did it by throwing away all this stuff, ditching interviews, and replacing them with work-sample tests. Some of the best people on our team, the best I've worked with in my whole career, are working here in their first job in our field. I'm a little grumpy about…

This is good to know. I think a lot of people are tired of wasting their lifespan on grinding lc-medium/hards.

Is there a website with a list of companies that don't participate in the leetcode/FAANG interview process? I feel like there is a need for one.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't these quadrants from about 100 years ago? Some Prussian General von Whatshisname? Edit: General von Hammerstein I divide my officers into four classes as follows: the clever, the industrious, the lazy, and the stupid. Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can under certain circumstances be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the…

It's a similar shape but with quite different conclusions - low drive + low aptitude: never hire Hammerstein thinks some use can be made of these folks - low drive + high aptitude: hire for targeted use cases where you need expertise Hammerstein has this group as high leadership positions - high drive + low aptitude: hire, train, and foster aptitude growth These are the ones who Hammerstein avoids - high drive + high…

> These are the ones who Hammerstein avoids

My experience has been that aptitude can be developed. In the context of "low experience" (generally junior engineers), the ones that succeed are the ones that put the work in to learn and get better.

But I can appreciate Hammerstein's perspective, especially if there isn't an added nuance of Carol Dweck's "fixed" vs "growth" mindset. A high drive, low aptitude individual -- seen through a fixed mindset lens -- is indeed dangerous!

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#293

> “Tell me about you. If your life was a book, give me the chapter titles from your birth till now.” Once you’ve gotten the overview, dive into each “chapter” and plumb the depths for their real stories. Go back to their childhood! I learn a lot about their grit and commitment to excellence from their basketball obsession or maybe their experience caring for a dying parent. I don't think I'd be comfortable sharing th…

That reminds me of Shopify's "Story of your life" interview.

Tell me everything about your life, what did you like in elementary school? High school? Tell me all...

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#294
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But that's naive." Or perhaps we realize that company "culture" or "fit" are often used to discriminate.

The verb "discriminate" has been (perhaps rightfully) saddled with negative connotations, but discrimination is exactly what any hiring manager is doing. You're discriminating between candidates on the basis of non-protected attributes. Obviously we don't want to discriminate on the basis of protected attributes, and it gets messy when there are areas of strong (often causal) overlap between protected classes of peop…

And yet you don't need a bunch of personal background to "see how their worldview was shaped" in order to see their worldview and value to the company. The personal questions aspect of the interview is not very valuable, leads to the possiblity of more negative biases, and potentially opens the door to lawsuits if you ask specific things.

Perhaps your view of us "naive" technical folk is itself naive.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#295
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nobody I know gives too much of their real personality at work i don't believe that. are you claiming that they are all faking it? i would not want to work in a place where people fake their personality just to fit in. my experience from working on FOSS projects suggests that the stereotypical behavior we see in some engineers is in fact real. not as exaggerated as people claim, but the signs are there. more importan…

> i would not want to work in a place where people fake their personality just to fit in. You know that statistically some number of the people you work and collaborate productively with, and get along with. They would, if given the option, never interact with you again for the rest of their lives. You know this, right? I am a boring robot engineer because it’s easy to do. The “how was your weekend” conversations are…

You know that statistically some number of the people you work and collaborate productively with, and get along with. They would, if given the option, never interact with you again for the rest of their lives. You know this, right?

i don't know that because i don't care. what i care about is that we can get along at work. at that point that is all that matters. chances are that the longer we work together the more we get to know each other and the more we learn to respect each other and the more likely we may enjoy interacting outside of work.

i think this goes back to the difference between europeans and americans: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39006092

well, actually it is europeans and the rest of the world, because everywhere i have been to, north america, asia and africa, people are friendlier than in europe.

but it can't possibly be true that the whole world except europe is faking being nice. it doesn't make sense. i rather think that people honestly believe that being nice is the right way how to interact with others, and that has absolutely nothing to do with being fake. it is the very thing that allows us to get along. whether i want to hang out with you after work is not a question of getting along or of our personality but one of having common interests or beliefs. and if someone doesn't want to hang out with me ever again, then it's not only because we really do not have any common interests or beliefs but also because that person is likely rather closed minded. (to be clear, not wanting to hang out is not a sign of being closed minded. they may simply have other priorities. not wanting to interact ever again for the rest of their lives however does look quite closed minded to me)

people didn't join linus torvalds to develop the kernel because of his friendly personality or richard stallman for that matter.

for sure, a friendly personality does make that easier, and a hostile one will put of some people for whom the personality does matter more, likely due to their own past experiences.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any real revolution in living conditions (like being able to support 8 billion people on chemical fertilizers) always involved finding order in situations. Everything else is about as effective as pushing the deck chairs around on the Titanic.

Order vs disorder is a false dichotomy. The vast majority of situations fall somewhere in between "math problem with a proof" and "random assortment of unrelated events." The processes required to make progress at one end of that spectrum are different than at the other end, though most problems worth solving have components at different places on that spectrum. Engineers making micro perfection in well organized poc…

This is a very well articulated and nuanced comment. In the most pathological engineering organizations, that lack of perception can fester into active resentment of other disciplines.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#297
Off the top of my head, non-exhaustive.

When hiring effective management, you should go with the sociopath:

- whose objectives align with your own

- who can effectively mask discomfort

- who can light up a room or light a fire under someone's ass

- who doesn't try to one-up you (assuming you're hiring for a subordinate / equal position)

When hiring technical talent, I think the following are important:

- Zeal for whatever they're doing : This means you don't get to employ a cookie cutter employee. Look at the technical things they do that don't qualify for a resume.

- Ability to ingest information : This person you're hiring should be comfortable with a broad intake of information from various sources. This means someone you're hiring for a technical role should be able to tell you about (for example) the last Sci-Fi series he read and how it made him apply a certain idea from it to another domain. Doesn't have to be too hardcore. This weeds out people that only picked a certain discipline for the money and have no real interest in it.

- The things they've made : Don't constrain them to the exact thing you're hiring for. Allow the candidate to veer.

- The things they decided to drop : This tells you what they thought wasn't worth the effort, or what they managed to sidestep, and how. This tells you how well-developed their discernment for choosing / dropping parts of a technical problem is. This also tells you how lazy the candidate is. Laziness is better than over-engineering something (unless, of course, you can explain why you over-engineered it (assuming the candidate ideally understands said thing is over-engineered))

- "If you were in management, what would you do differently?" - Vox Populi. Attitude towards those above him. You don't want a one-upper in a tight-knit, integral team. Likewise, you don't want an abrasive independent in a role that requires a lot of permission from management. Temperament must be matched to the existing team and sometimes this can be the deciding factor, an employee great at everything else but unable to work with the organization's modus operandi might require a different management style, or concessions that your organization might not be able to provide.

Auxiliary characteristics for technical talent

- Actual impostor syndrome : most people don't have impostor syndrome. They have the opposite, where they deep down know they're incompetent, but their ego can't take it, so they believe they need to calm down because they already know everything. When you find someone with actual impostor syndrome, you'll be surprised at the stark contrast between their accomplishments and what they claim to know. They'll be able to design complex systems but when scrutinized, will double-guess quite often. This can also be a great test for broad / "associative" thinking. Obviously, this is very different from someone that's lying on their resume and you'd need to weed out the liars in the interview. It's fairly easy once you've met someone that's the real deal.

- Contrarianism/Skepticism : A healthy amount of skepticism is (IMO) necessary to keep the fires of technical work burning. Too much might mean your team would not be able to work well this candidate. More often than not, those with too much of this quality don't apply to jobs and prefer to do their own thing. - Work Experience : Not having any shouldn't be a deal breaker for junior positions. If they have worked in a technical position somewhere else, they should be able to explain what they did, what their contribution was and how this affected (if it did at all) the way they approach / engage in technical work.

Obviously, giving these out before the interview would make detecting good hires much more difficult. It's also important to not linger on a question. Never making a question feel mandatory is also a great way to keep the interview honest. If you're hiring for management, make sure someone in a management position higher than the one the interview is for is alwyas present in the meeting. If you're hiring for a technical position, make sure a senior technical person is always present and has significant input, ideally the same person / group should invigilate through the (likely) multiple interviews. The interview should feel like a conversation and not an exam. Ten minutes of honest conversation that lays down the candidate's technical expectations is much more valuable than five rounds of leetcode. Nevertheless, it's important to save time and if someone doesn't have any real interest other than money, they should be dropped.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The verb "discriminate" has been (perhaps rightfully) saddled with negative connotations, but discrimination is exactly what any hiring manager is doing. You're discriminating between candidates on the basis of non-protected attributes. Obviously we don't want to discriminate on the basis of protected attributes, and it gets messy when there are areas of strong (often causal) overlap between protected classes of peop…

And yet you don't need a bunch of personal background to "see how their worldview was shaped" in order to see their worldview and value to the company. The personal questions aspect of the interview is not very valuable, leads to the possiblity of more negative biases, and potentially opens the door to lawsuits if you ask specific things. Perhaps your view of us "naive" technical folk is itself naive.

Well, I'm an engineer myself, albeit with a lot of sidecar management experience, so I like to (perhaps naively) think that I'm somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. I believe everyone is naive in certain respects; there are so many hours in the day and no one can be an expert in everything.

But your larger point is fair: it's a very tricky and problematic area.

I do think that it can help to see how people's worldview was shaped rather than just trying to get a one-shot sense of someone's worldview based on your static impression of them at this moment in time, though.

It's analogous to asking someone to describe their prior technical work experience rather than just explaining what they know in this precise moment, and akin to someone showing their work when completing a math problem. It makes it easier to tell whether someone actually knows what they purport to know, or believes what they purport to believe, if they can show how that experience was derived.

I feel this is especially true in the case mentioned in the original article, where you as the employer are essentially taking a minor leap of faith in hiring someone. You can't rely as much on their prior work experience as a "web of trust" evidence point that they know how to conduct themselves. You need to reach for other data points.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#299
post #264
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

neuroticism, no. asocial or antisocial behavior, yes.

Asocial? I guess autistic people are out! I assume you’re young: there are many reasons people might be perfectly good at a job but not want to socialize with those people, or any other people. This whole thread makes me sad as an unemployed autistic person. HN folks are horrible hiring managers! Edit: and now downvoted for showing you losers that your personal model of the world and the people in it might be lacking…

I suspect you may be interpreting this a bit too broadly, and it's obviously personal for you. Part of work is, nearly invariably, social.

Not wanting to get Friday beers with the team shouldn't really be a factor.

Not being able to communicate smoothly and effectively with them in a work context absolutely is.

I suspect the poster you are responding to is focusing on the latter, and you on the former.

Re: How to hire low experience, high potential people

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't these quadrants from about 100 years ago? Some Prussian General von Whatshisname? Edit: General von Hammerstein I divide my officers into four classes as follows: the clever, the industrious, the lazy, and the stupid. Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can under certain circumstances be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the…

It's a similar shape but with quite different conclusions - low drive + low aptitude: never hire Hammerstein thinks some use can be made of these folks - low drive + high aptitude: hire for targeted use cases where you need expertise Hammerstein has this group as high leadership positions - high drive + low aptitude: hire, train, and foster aptitude growth These are the ones who Hammerstein avoids - high drive + high…

> Hammerstein thinks some use can be made of these folks

In a military context it's plausible "don't hire" isn't an option.

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