Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice • Hacker News Board

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#291

Post by lostmsu » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 4:34 PM UTC

_heimdall wrote: post #285

lostmsu wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the monopoly law should be changed to adapt to multiple scales. E.g. you shouldn't be able to use product 1 that has 100Y market in A to create any advantage for product 2 in market B if you know user uses competitor in B who's market in B is For example if you have 2B market in OS you should not be allowed to use OS to advertise your own browser to user who uses another browser with under 200M users. That wo…

How would a regulation like that actually be enforced? Whenever a regulation compares against what you "know" it is usually pretty easy to just not look, or claim that you numbers were inaccurate, or that team A knew but team B which implemented feature didn't (potentially even claiming that's a privacy feature by protecting user data). Even more difficult, the stats needed would be owned by the same party. I.e. Micr…

That's why the knowing caveat. E.g. either you HAVE to advertise to your own users (so if your browser is already the default, you still have to show the notification to suggest to change), or you are treated as if you know, and then you can't advertise based on the 10x rule.

To put it differently you can't hide ad for Chrome users and then pretend you did not know others used FF.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#292

Post by lostmsu » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

_heimdall wrote: post #285

lostmsu wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the monopoly law should be changed to adapt to multiple scales. E.g. you shouldn't be able to use product 1 that has 100Y market in A to create any advantage for product 2 in market B if you know user uses competitor in B who's market in B is For example if you have 2B market in OS you should not be allowed to use OS to advertise your own browser to user who uses another browser with under 200M users. That wo…

How would a regulation like that actually be enforced? Whenever a regulation compares against what you "know" it is usually pretty easy to just not look, or claim that you numbers were inaccurate, or that team A knew but team B which implemented feature didn't (potentially even claiming that's a privacy feature by protecting user data). Even more difficult, the stats needed would be owned by the same party. I.e. Micr…

As for stats: at least in software you can definitely get independent sources of statistics.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#293

Post by _heimdall » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 5:30 PM UTC

lostmsu wrote: post #292

_heimdall wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would a regulation like that actually be enforced? Whenever a regulation compares against what you "know" it is usually pretty easy to just not look, or claim that you numbers were inaccurate, or that team A knew but team B which implemented feature didn't (potentially even claiming that's a privacy feature by protecting user data). Even more difficult, the stats needed would be owned by the same party. I.e. Micr…

As for stats: at least in software you can definitely get independent sources of statistics.

That might be possible, I'd be really curious how. For something like data on what apps a user has installed, what hardware they're on, etc those data really would be first-party analytics.

Some things can be collected through third party sources, though that depends on those third party tools being used, not being blocked by a user, and on API access for those third party tools to collect the necessary data. I would hope such regulations wouldn't depend on regulating specific API design, but that could be necessary.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#294

Post by _heimdall » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 5:33 PM UTC

lostmsu wrote: post #291

_heimdall wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would a regulation like that actually be enforced? Whenever a regulation compares against what you "know" it is usually pretty easy to just not look, or claim that you numbers were inaccurate, or that team A knew but team B which implemented feature didn't (potentially even claiming that's a privacy feature by protecting user data). Even more difficult, the stats needed would be owned by the same party. I.e. Micr…

That's why the knowing caveat. E.g. either you HAVE to advertise to your own users (so if your browser is already the default, you still have to show the notification to suggest to change), or you are treated as if you know, and then you can't advertise based on the 10x rule. To put it differently you can't hide ad for Chrome users and then pretend you did not know others used FF.

How would the regulator know when you break the rules though?

I may very well be misunderstanding the idea here, but it still seems like it would come down to (for example) Microsoft being required to limit how they send user notifications/recommendations based on Microsoft's own internal analytics for user metrics.

For the Chrome example, the regulator would have to know how Google's proprietary ad targeting algorithm works to confirm that it doesn't target based on user agent or browser manufacturer. I'm not sure how the regulators would really be able to pull that off any better than regulators asking VW software for VW diesel emissions measurements.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#295

Post by executesorder66 » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 7:52 PM UTC

droopyEyelids wrote: post #258

executesorder66 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't work for microsoft, but I and everyone else knows that that is the kind of shit you'll be working on (who suggested it is irrelevant) long before you'd even do an interview with them. Microsoft employees are certified assholes, and they know it.

He’s saying that developers are simply given a list of tasks to implement and their decision making authority stops after “how do i implement this ticket” The role “product manager” is what makes the product decisions like we’re describing.

I know. I'm saying they already knew those kinds of decisions would be made long before they even got the job. Which is why I said it is irrelevant who makes the decision.

The devs are just as guilty as the assholes who made those decisions, because Microsoft has been making those kinds of decisions for decades.

These devs can't even hide behind the "just following orders" excuse, because as I've already said multiple times, they knew long before they got the job, that that is the kind of stuff they would be working on.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#296

Post by trympet » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 8:05 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #91

politelemon wrote: post #63

> For example, Apple’s decision to allow alternative browser engines is only effective in the EU. And don't forget it's been done in the most painful way possible. Yet, I've not seen any reports from Mozilla about ios' practices over the past decades, or the after.

And don’t forget Apple’s restriction on alternative browser engines in iOS and iPadOS is the only thing keeping most websites from becoming Chrome only.

Ah yes, you're right. We should be thanking Apple for restricting user choice...

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#297

Post by shortsunblack » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 8:31 PM UTC

Edge is really nice. Power users can use enterprise policy management to disable the data exfiltration. Certainly would be nice for regular users not to get their data stolen to be mined for commercial purposes, too. But if you use Windows, there really cannot be an argument against Edge (with telemetry turned off), since you already trust Windows, the OS. Trusting the browser is not a leap of trust that one should scrutunize.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#298

Post by shortsunblack » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 8:49 PM UTC

evilduck wrote: post #189

bmitc wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, and when the browser updates they often switch settings back, such as the default search engine. I still use it but am aggressive about tightening up the settings.

Why? What does it bring to the table over Chromium once you disable all the Microsoft nonsense?

It has specific security mitigations that apply on Windows. It has Super Duper Secure Mode (JIT disabler per-website). It has better battery life than Chrome. It looks nicer than Chrome and it has much better vertical tabs than Brave or Firefox.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#299

Post by jeroenhd » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 10:26 PM UTC

Jenda_ wrote: post #289

jeroenhd wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked (three months ago?) you needed to patch the kernel to enable hibernation in kernel lockdown mode. I think OpenSUSE enabled these kernel patches by default, but that caused issues with secure boot. Nvidia "just working" is a matter of luck and patience. I'm on kernel 6.7 on my laptop with the latest Nvidia driver and I'm booting with special Nvidia command line flags and running with carious Nvidia…

Oh, OK, I didn't think about lockdown mode, just a regular rootfs encryption. I still use X, as Wayland does not seem to implement all the features I'm using (but it's improving, so I expect I can go to Wayland in a few years).

Lockdown mode is a feature of Linux that's automatically enabled if it detects some circumstances. IIRC, it's a requirement for getting your stuff signed to allow you to do secure boot (without loading a manual secure boot key, of course). I would say it's enabled on most first-time Linux users' computers.

As for Wayland, I learned the hard way that modern distributions have removed the Wayland block on Nvidia drivers, and many will go Wayland-first after install. It's easy to switch back, but only if you know what X11 and Wayland even are in the first place. Of course distros have to try to push people to Wayland, because Red Hat and desktop environments are moving towards Wayland-only for new releases in a couple of years, but that's not without its unfortunate consequences.

In a few years, Wayland has gone from "doesn't even start" to "usable with a whole bunch of quirks and issues", I'm sure it'll work fine when the time comes to abandon X.org. But for now, the defaults are a bit weird. In practice, distros can pick between "some weird issues on Nvidia hardware" and "extremely limited touchpad gesture support" and it's tough to make a choice there.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#300

Post by RajT88 » Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 10:31 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #176

RajT88 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. One of the most egregious things is the insistence on using the Bing start page. You have to install an extension to have your own start page (in fairness most browsers are like this these days). However, lately Edge just magically stopped letting new tab redirect work. At least it loads a blank page, but it is annoying. Microsoft seems hell bent on preventing user control all over their client ecosystem. The…

Yea, and when the browser updates they often switch settings back, such as the default search engine. I still use it but am aggressive about tightening up the settings.

I generally like the Microsoft stack but I cannot wait for them to be hauled back in front of congress over these shenanigans. They will have earned it.