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Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

nightshade.cs.uchicago.edu

291–300 of 710 posts

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way these ML models and humans operate are indeed quite different. Humans work by abstracting concepts in what they see, even when looking at the work of others. Even individuals with photographic memories mentally abstract things like lighting, body kinetics, musculature, color theory, etc and produce new work based on those abstractions rather than directly copying original work (unless the artist is intentiona…

You're wrong in your concept of how AI/ML works. Even trivial 1980's neural networks generalize, it's the whole point of AI/ML or you'd just have a lookup-table (or, as you put it, something that copies and pastes images together). I've seen "infographics" spread by anti-AI people (or just attention-seekers) on Twitter that tries to "explain" that AI image generators blend together existing images, which is simply no…

ML generalization and human abstraction are very different beasts.

For example, a human artist would have an understanding of how line weight factors into stylization and why it looks the way it does and be able to accurately apply these concepts to drawings of things they’ve never seen in that style (or even seen at all, if it’s of something imaginary).

The best an ML model can do is mimic examples of line art in the given style within its training data, the product of which will contain errors due to not understanding the underlying principles, especially if you ask it to draw something it hasn’t seen in the style you’re asking for. This is why generative AI needs such vast volumes of data to work well; it’s going to falter in cases not well covered by the data. It’s not learning concepts, only statistical probabilities.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#292

Remember when the music industry tried to use technology to stop music pirating? This will work about as well... Oh, I forget, fighting music pirating was considered an evil thing to do on HN. "pirating is not stealing, is copyright infringement", right? Unlike training neural nets on internet content which of course is "stealing".

The difference is that “pirating” is mostly done by individuals for private use, whereas training is mostly done by megacorporations looking to make more money.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None whatsoever. There is no right to good data for model training, nor does any contractual relationship exist between you and and a model builder who scrapes your website.

If you're assuming this is open-shut, you're wrong. I asked this specifically as someone who works in security. A court is going to have to decide where the line is between DRM and malware in adversarial-AI tools.

I'm not. Malware is one thin, passive data poisoning is another. Mapmakers have long used such devices to detect/deter unwanted copying. In the US such 'trap streets' are not protected by copyright, but nor do they generate liability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#294
post #286
post #172

This is the DRM problem again. However much we might wish that it was not true, ideas are not rivalrous. If you share an idea with another person, they now have that idea too. If you share words on paper, then someone with eyes and a brain might memorize them (or much more likely, just grasp and retain the ideas conveyed in the words). If you let someone hear your music, then the ideas (phrasing, style, melody, etc)…

You don't copyright ideas, you copyright works. And these artists' productions are works, not abstract ideas, with copyrights, and they are being violated. This is simple law. Why do people have such a hard time with this? Are you the one training the models and you need to find a cognitive escape out of the illegality and wrong-doing of your activities?

If it were true, then we wouldn't have that great difference in opinions on this topic.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, some people don't even want their artwork studied in schools. Even if you argue that an AI is "human enough" the artists should still have the right to refuse their art being studies.

>the artists should still have the right to refuse their art being studies. No, that right doesn't exist. If you put your work of art out there for people to see, people will see it and learn from it, and be inspired by it. It's unavoidable. How could it possibly work otherwise? Artist A: You studied my work to produce yours, even when I asked people not to do that! Artist B: Prove it. What kind of evidence or argume…

The right to not use my things exists everywhere, universally. Good people usually ask before they use something of someone else's, and the person being asked can say "no." How hard is that to understand? You might believe they don't have the right to say "no," but they can say whatever they want.

Example:

If you studied my (we will assume "unique") work and used it without my permission, then let us say I sue you. At that point, you would claim "fair use," and the courts would decide whether it was fair use (ask everyone who used a mouse and got sued for it in the last ~100 years). The court would either agree that you used my works under "fair use" ... or not. It would be up to how you presented it to the court, and humans would analyze your intent and decide.

OR, I might agree it is fair use and not sue you. However, that weakens my standing on my copyright, so it's better for me to sue you (assuming I have the resources to do so when it is clearly fair use).

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#296
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nightshaded images aren't intended for portfolios. They're mean to be uploaded enmasse and scraped later.

To where? A place no one sees them and they aren't scraped?

Most serious artists I know (at least in my community) release their high-quality images on Patreon or similar.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#297
post #175

Huge market for snake oil here. There is no way that such tools will ever win, given the requirements the art remain viewable to human perception, so even if you made something that worked (which this sounds like it doesn’t) from first principles it will be worked around immediately. The only real way for artists or anyone really to try to hold back models from training on human outputs is through the law, ie, levera…

>There is no way that such tools will ever win, given the requirements the art remain viewable to human perception

On the other hand, the adversarial environment might push models towards a representation more aligned with human perception, which is neat.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#298
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it would be completely legal. Theft is never legal; that's why you can be sued. "Fair use" is a legal defense in the theft of copyrighted works. > They mean that nobody is going to sue you, because the other person would lose the lawsuit That hasn't stopped people from suing anyone ever. If they want to sue you, they'll sue you. > and therefore you did nothing wrong and are safe. If you steal a pen from a store,…

> Theft is never legal; that's why you can be sued. That's incorrect. You can be sued for anything. If it is theft or something else or nothing is decided by the courts.

That is entirely my point. It can only be decided by the courts. This being a civil matter, it has to be brought up by a lawsuit. Thus, you have to be sued and it has to be decided by the courts.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#299
post #170
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic we ought to start lynching artists, why they didn't care about all of those who lost their jobs making pigments, canvasses, pencils, brushes etc etc

Artists pay those people and make their jobs needed. Same as the person above claiming Duchamp didn't negotiate with the ceramics makers - yes, they absolutely did and do pay their suppliers. Artists aren't smash and grabbing their local Blick. AI pays no artist.

Not digital artists, though.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#300
post #172

This is the DRM problem again. However much we might wish that it was not true, ideas are not rivalrous. If you share an idea with another person, they now have that idea too. If you share words on paper, then someone with eyes and a brain might memorize them (or much more likely, just grasp and retain the ideas conveyed in the words). If you let someone hear your music, then the ideas (phrasing, style, melody, etc)…

[flagged]

I don't think we have to compare the process when the end result (another's work being influenced by what they have previously seen) is the same.
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