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The case for single-stair multifamily

thesisdriven.com

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Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#291

Post by anon291 »

ghaff wrote: post #85
sonic45132 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does mention buildings can be a single stair with an elevator. 2 stairwells vs 1 stairwell doesn't need affect ADA compliance.

It does mean disabled residents are sort of screwed if there's a fire alarm and the elevators are shutoff--as a friend told me recently--unless the neighbors can help. But that's sort of ignored given lack of realistic options.

If you can't walk down one staircase, and require an elevator no matter what, how are two staircases going to help?

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#292

Post by bluGill »

greenthrow wrote: post #279
mperham wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have zoning and internationally recognized building safety codes already. Our current housing emergency happening everywhere is a pretty good indicator that we should be much more aggressive about trimming back the regulatory state which has ossified our cities.

Your argument doesn't really make sense because the problem isn't lack of houses or apartments, there's plenty of places to put everyone. The problem is one of affordability. The costs of stuff that already exists and has existed for ages isn't really tied to the current cost to build, even if we buy the specious argument that all regulation raises costs and those costs are inevitably passed directly to tenants.

supply and eemand sets rents. You you rent perfecly good existing houses cheap in rural areas. Nobody wants to like there.

There is no reason to think there is enourh room for everyone who wants to like in San Francisco, and statistics prove they heve not been building much. Mean while in other states we find areas of demand where housing is not expensive. Where I live you can rent one bedroom apartments for under $1000, mohe in won't be until spring as the building is still under construction. The owners are planning on starting the next building when this is done. That is what allosing building does.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#293

Post by bluGill »

gamepsys wrote: post #274
loeg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setbacks, parking minimums and floor area ratios have nothing to do with safety. Community reviews have absolutely nothing to do with safety.

> Community review Any feedback brought up in a community review is on official record. I have witnessed safety concerns being brought up in community review multiple times that caused changes to the building plan. In one situation it was a very serious concern about blocking fire truck access to an elementary school.

why didn't the code catch that?

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#294

Post by breischl »

ryukoposting wrote: post #284

In many cities, the second staircase is used as an amenity. Chicago is chock-full of old houses converted to three-flats. Most of those flats have large balconies on the back... with a staircase. These balconies provide fresh air and nice views at a price point where both of those things are otherwise impossible to find. So yes, my counterpoint is "but I like the second staircase." But, I really do - a lot of people…

>Most of those flats have large balconies on the back... with a staircase.

It sounds like you're describing an external staircase - loosely speaking a fire escape. I could be wrong though, I'm not sure.

The article was discussing the requirement for _fully enclosed_ internal staircases, which is different.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#295

Post by gamepsys »

anon291 wrote: post #287
gamepsys wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, are there any regulations on housing you agree with? There tends to be belief that housing regulations exist to limit supply. Let's not forget that many of these encourage safety and are cost effective ways to increase the quality of life of the residents. If we take deregulation and cheap housing to the extreme we end up with shanty towns.

> If we take deregulation and cheap housing to the extreme we end up with shanty towns. That's possible, but, considering that all the most expensive places in this country were developed in the very way this article is advocating, I'm going to label it as improbable. Many amongst my friends and family think I'm a bit crazy living in the inner city, but the truth is my equity has skyrocketed, and will continue to do…

I use to look at buying a 60+ year old condo/coop on the west coast, until I looked at the earthquake statistics and safety standards of brick multistory buildings. Now I know why the newer steel buildings cost 2-6x the old brick buildings in the same neighborhood.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#296

Post by mjmahone17 »

tylermw wrote: post #190
mjmahone17 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ties into a second problem: the US especially requires elevators to be too large, which limits how many are built because they take up so much square footage, which drives up the cost to install. In Spain and France you’ll find single staircase, 4 story buildings that have one meter-by-meter sized elevator. Often even as retrofits in older buildings! In NY you’ll find these too, but they’re only in pre-war (193…

The word you’re looking for is “cheaper,” not “accessible.” Those 1x1m elevators certainly aren’t accessible for wheelchair users. ADA requirements require the following minimum dimensions for an elevator: “The width of the elevator car is a minimum of 80 inches (2030 mm). The depth of the elevator car measured from the back wall to the elevator door is a minimum of 54 inches (1370 mm). The depth of the elevator car…

More accessible. People with walkers can access the apartment, as can people in smaller wheelchairs, if there is a small elevator. In NYC plenty of older people live in pre-war buildings with tiny elevators. Few live in third floor walk up apartments.

My point is exactly that the ADA, in this case, lets the perfect (fully accessible elevator) result in worse outcomes (brand new apartments in 3-5 story buildings require walking up stairs). This is especially harmful in cities where many homes are on small, 12-20 ft wide lots.

As an example I know people who had to move out of their home when they tore their ACL, whereas with a small elevator they would not need to. To be clear I think we need many many more ADA-accessible apartments, but wherever you are allowed to not have an elevator at all, you should also be allowed to have a small 1-2 person elevator in addition to the stairs.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#297

Post by bluGill »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #134
quickthrowman wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason five over ones are popular in the US has nothing to do with staircase requirements. The reason is money, like always. You can stick build residential buildings up to five stories and it’s way, way cheaper than reinforced concrete and steel. They are mega complexes because the financial stakeholders want to maximize the available land and rents.

> The reason five over ones are popular in the US has nothing to do with staircase requirements. The reason is money, like always. Yes it is money. More staircases remarkably increase the costs of buildings. Single stairway, cheaper buildings, more profitable to do other sorts of buildings, more variety of buildings etc. (see also no parking mandates)

Stairs are not expensivei they take space, but are cheay otherwise

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#298

Post by mortenjorck »

akavi wrote: post #229
elliotto wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having streets unable to be accessible by fire response vehicles doesn't seem like a good idea. What would be the alternative here? (genuine question, I'm not from the US)

Smaller fire trucks.

Indeed, this is a thoroughly solved problem thanks to countries like Japan where urban planning typically allows meandering networks of narrow, pedestrian-friendly streets.

This article has some nice points of comparison between typical American firetrucks and a Japanese firetruck: https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/Meet-Kiri-the-tiny...

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#299

Post by gamepsys »

bluGill wrote: post #293
gamepsys wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Community review Any feedback brought up in a community review is on official record. I have witnessed safety concerns being brought up in community review multiple times that caused changes to the building plan. In one situation it was a very serious concern about blocking fire truck access to an elementary school.

why didn't the code catch that?

The code doesn't catch anything. People catch violations of the code. Community review is a place people can point out code violations. It's actually extremely embarrassing when this happens to a developer.

Buildings get built with infractions all the time. With the MFH buildings it's actually a point of law to see who gets stuck with the liability -- the person that built it or the person that bought it.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#300

Post by akavi »

neuronexmachina wrote: post #271
beejiu wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copy paste from Europe, where they are about half the size?

Some possible reasons for why American fire trucks tend to be larger: * more frequently sent to rural homes, where there might not be an available hydrant, so they need to transport all the water they're likely to need * same for wildfires * American homes more likely to be wood+drywall

I would simply have small firetrucks in urban areas, and large fire trucks in rural areas.
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