Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare • Hacker News Board

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#291

Post by nox101 » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:06 AM UTC

ChainOfFools wrote: post #284

Varriount wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kinds of noise do the trains produce? Do you think there are any ways to lessen it, and/or have any been implemented? (I'm thinking something like sound barriers).

Not a rail expert, not even a casual spectator. But my unstudied impression is that the noise that penetrates the most is the ultra-low frequency rumble that comes from the diesel side of the drivetrain, with a secondary source being steel on steel squealing of bogeys around bends at the minimal range of their tolerance. But the latter doesn't have the penetrating power of the former, not by a long shot, so to elimin…

Japan puts tall fences around highways. I've assumed that's for the noise but never checked.

Example: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.webca...

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#292

Post by cityofdelusion » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:10 AM UTC

gepardi wrote: post #283

beedeebeedee wrote: post #247

Build more railroads. (I used to work for an autonomous truck company, and when you factor in the cost of roads in addition to the development of the trucks, it makes absolutely no sense to do autonomous trucking when you could do trains. As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains. We collectively spend billions and billions on roads but would not dare spend money to build more tracks. It is shocking and…

Yep. No one (generally) bats an eye when voting at the city level for a $100mm road package. But trains? Freight should move mostly by train. We could build rail lines where there are already highways, just swap a vehicle lain for a train rail, all that 18 wheeler traffic can be reduced significantly. Safer highways. Less congestion.

Not that simple, at least in the U.S. Rail has far stricter requirements on turn radius and grade. As an example the highways around here have 6%+ grade segments (after tunneling!) and rail is rarely over 1%. I haven’t even mentioned the incorrect subgrade and the massive safety envelope (approx 20x20 feet) which is about 2 highway lanes wide and far too tall for the thousands of highway overpasses.

Rail truly is a unique infrastructure concern and needs to be designed and laid on its own.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#293

Post by kevinchen » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:12 AM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #132

> No guarantee of a timely response from remote operators or backend services. > Therefore, all safety-critical decisions must be made by the onboard computer alone. Why is the requirement that all safety-critical decisions must be made on board, versus the seemingly-simplifying assumption that only some or most decisions would have to be made on board, because a remote operator or backend service could be available…

Author here. At the mean time between failures needed to exceed human performance, the uptime of the network connection quickly becomes a limiting factor. It’s possible to pick only routes that have great cell coverage but this limits commercial viability.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#294

Post by kevinchen » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:17 AM UTC

pinkmuffinere wrote: post #157

karaterobot wrote: post #132

> No guarantee of a timely response from remote operators or backend services. > Therefore, all safety-critical decisions must be made by the onboard computer alone. Why is the requirement that all safety-critical decisions must be made on board, versus the seemingly-simplifying assumption that only some or most decisions would have to be made on board, because a remote operator or backend service could be available…

Ya, I wonder the same thing. In an extreme case it seems like you could build dedicated repeaters/cell phone towers/something along specific stretches of highway, and then start testing along just that stretch with remote operators on call. I suspect remote operators are cheaper than devoted drivers, potentially making a profit from that transition alone, and also collect training data to develop full autonomy.

Cell networks are even longer lead time and more capital intensive than autonomous driving ;) even if we only consider the fcc + local permitting time, it already makes this option difficult.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#295

Post by chockablock » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:17 AM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #270

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same way you have excessive oversized lots/parking for 5 side-by-side fast food restaurants - zoning. Just require distribution centers or warehouses to require a rail connection to the state's rail infrastructure to be approved for construction. If no rail connection exists, then the state will negotiate who pays for what to extend the network to it.

Zoning is a problem, but it's not the only problem there. I think there are at least two more good ones we could discuss: 1. We actually do not have a market mechanic that exists in the United States that allows people to choose properly dense homes or neighborhoods because of a number of reasons. Search tools and things like that focus on metrics like square footage or number of bathrooms, and so people select for t…

Sorry 1 does not make sense. It's not like I bid on a house based on its square footage, and then only find out the address when I win.

Even in the US, walkability scores, satellite photos, maps of transit and bike lanes, commute estimates, are all common enough on real estate sites. I think you just be seeing may be observing people's expressed preferences.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#296

Post by zbrozek » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:20 AM UTC

kevinchen wrote: post #290

zbrozek wrote: post #19

Sensors and their ranges aren't the right thing to point to. Off-the-shelf options are typically geared towards the ranges useful for passenger vehicles because that's where the volume is, but with money and time one can design something different. It's possible to achieve a sensible link budget for lidar or radar at much-longer ranges. The sensors will be bigger, they'll consume more power, and they'll cost more. Bu…

Most high end sensors, especially lidars, are targeted at L4 applications. Otherwise the price cannot be justified. It’s a safe bet that sensor makers are including AV developers in their market research. For lidar, the range is also limited by power limits + physics, which cannot be overcome by increasing money/power/device size. Some dependencies on semiconductor manufacturing tech or better signal processing might…

LiDAR transmit power is practically only limited by eye safety. And retinas are fixed size while the aperture of your transceiver isn't. Get a big lens and you can transmit a lot of power and collect a lot of reflected photos.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#297

Post by factormeta » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:34 AM UTC

beedeebeedee wrote: post #247

Build more railroads. (I used to work for an autonomous truck company, and when you factor in the cost of roads in addition to the development of the trucks, it makes absolutely no sense to do autonomous trucking when you could do trains. As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains. We collectively spend billions and billions on roads but would not dare spend money to build more tracks. It is shocking and…

>As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains.

The billionaires are surely investing heavily on trains and farms.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#298

Post by light_hue_1 » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:36 AM UTC

This article gets the entire sector wrong!

The reason autonomous trucking is exciting is platooning. You have one truck with a person in it at the head of a long chain of trucks.

This avoids all of the issues mentioned and it's the near-term future of trucking. Unfortunately, this will eliminate many long-haul trucking jobs.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#299

Post by twelvechairs » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:42 AM UTC

ChainOfFools wrote: post #284

Varriount wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kinds of noise do the trains produce? Do you think there are any ways to lessen it, and/or have any been implemented? (I'm thinking something like sound barriers).

Not a rail expert, not even a casual spectator. But my unstudied impression is that the noise that penetrates the most is the ultra-low frequency rumble that comes from the diesel side of the drivetrain, with a secondary source being steel on steel squealing of bogeys around bends at the minimal range of their tolerance. But the latter doesn't have the penetrating power of the former, not by a long shot, so to elimin…

Or just use electrified trains in the first place, like most of the modern world

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#300

Post by tomcam » Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 2:50 AM UTC

beedeebeedee wrote: post #247

Build more railroads. (I used to work for an autonomous truck company, and when you factor in the cost of roads in addition to the development of the trucks, it makes absolutely no sense to do autonomous trucking when you could do trains. As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains. We collectively spend billions and billions on roads but would not dare spend money to build more tracks. It is shocking and…

Agreed but it can’t happen anymore. Rights to the now-unused tracks have reverted to property owners. Impossible to restore w/out massive eminent domain issues.