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America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#291

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

ramblenode wrote: post #279
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with this take is that it fails to explain the differences and their consequences. If the differences and consequences are the same as if China was outright ignoring IP ownership*, why does it matter that you call the ignoring "different standards"? *- not that they aren't already

Can you point to a case that breaks both US and Chinese law? Otherwise, this conversation will be about vague generalizations. The issue is that IP is a legal creation, so it can only be stolen if it is recognized in the first place. That said, it does not seem like differences in IP law are usually what people are referring to when talking about IP theft. That is why I brought up the WTO, which is a forum in which t…

> The issue is that IP is a legal creation, so it can only be stolen if it is recognized in the first place

The same is true of all crimes, they are all legal creations. And from what I can tell, China has the concept of IP. They're protective of their own, for example.

It sounds, then, like you're now agreeing that the IP is being ignored, just saying it's okay because China don't want to recognize it.

If not, I will ask again:

Suppose we have 2 IP owners, and 1 has their IP ignored by China and copied, the other has their IP "considered a different standard/not recognized" by China and copied.

_What differences do the two IP owners experience?_

This is the key question I asked before, and I am asking now. What's the difference for the IP owner? I ask because it seems like you're playing with words, not substance.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#292

Post by Nasrudith »

jnash wrote: post #283
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As GGP mentioned, the necessity of keeping stock prices (and property values, and anything else securitized) high so as to not impoverish pension funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc., is real. I'm confused about how your model of the economy works. It sounds like you believe CEOs are selfish and greedy when it comes to workers, but when it comes to pension funds, they keep stock prices high out of the goodness of their hearts?…

> The stock price is essentially the fair market value of the company That is something some people choose to believe to be true. The same way some people choose to believe that God (or a number of Gods) exist.

While there is a spike at buy-out it is still more or less true. Try to buy a company for far less than the stock market price and tell me how that works out for you.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#293

Post by Nasrudith »

throw__away7391 wrote: post #65
lemonwaterlime wrote: post #2

The key topics missing from this article are management and culture. Manufacturing companies by and large are stubborn with outdated practices that haven’t kept up with the times. The number of mechanical engineers who switched to web development, for instance, because of poor pay and improper management is insane. And during the pandemic, even more either fled or were pushed out from lack of opportunity. It’s easy t…

OK, but this was also true of many software companies in the past. What is keeping manufacturing companies from experiencing the same kind of disruption?

If I had to guess it would be higher amount of capital investment as a requirement and its impact on scaling - physical things can't just explode in-a-good-way the same way software can. This means both more time and more capital is required to scale up.

Incumbents benefit from economies of scale and newcomers face dis-economies of scale. Which we know takes time from the economies Growing new competitors becomes hard and requires some cleverness to get around. Just look at electric cars and how they choose luxury/sports cars as their first models for a reason, so that the higher costs can be hidden in the high luxury margins. They need to be able to grow past that awkward point.

The same economies of scale which made the industrial revolution possible essentially props up "gigantic idiots" (companies which perform poorly but are sizable enough that their economies of scale made up for bad habits) until their "stupidity" (bad decisions) becomes great enough a disadvantage that others can compete with them.

The type of disruption that the manufacturing companies seem to engender is funding outsourcing to some remote cheap locale, and then wake up wondering where all of their competitors came from after they taught people enmasse how to build their product.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#294

Post by pseudosaid »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #122
yterdy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. As GGP mentioned, the necessity of keeping stock prices (and property values, and anything else securitized) high so as to not impoverish pension funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc., is real. That is, if you care about Silent, Boomer, and Gen X retirees - who invested , but didn't save - being able to cover their myriad outlays. Millennials and younger need not apply, of course; we're just never going to be able to r…

>As GGP mentioned, the necessity of keeping stock prices (and property values, and anything else securitized) high so as to not impoverish pension funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc., is real. I'm confused about how your model of the economy works. It sounds like you believe CEOs are selfish and greedy when it comes to workers, but when it comes to pension funds, they keep stock prices high out of the goodness of their hearts?…

you think the stock market works well? look up the fail to deliver rate, infinite liquidity of market makers, and how the SEC said themselves that 95% of retail trades are happening off lit markets in dark pool. Price discovery has been broken for a long time and without, there is no legitimate market.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#295

Post by tacocataco »

simonblack wrote: post #273

It's more than factories that are missing today in the US. It's the millions of workers that have the skill-sets to work those factories. In the 40 years that the US has offshored manufacturing, all of those guys that used to know what's what have retired or died. There's nobody left. It's going to take another 30-40 years to replace them. The US doesn't have the luxury of having those 30-40 years.

The market has spoken, US labor is to expensive, until the quality of life here normalizes into the old normal of landed lords and peasants.

Almost there.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#296

Post by MockObject »

Roark66 wrote: post #201
krisoft wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Back then The West to the last moment had many prominent authors praising Soviet advancements in many fields until the very end and the collapse that was a complete surprise to many. I hear you. But I am not worried about whatever economic modellers say, or what prominent authors write. What I am worried is when huge companies, predominantly preceived as western ones, spread their arms and swear there is no way the…

>I hear you. But I am not worried about whatever economic modellers say, or what prominent authors write. What I am worried is when huge companies, predominantly preceived as western ones, spread their arms and swear there is no way they can make their gizmos in the USA. Yes, you make a very valid point. >Look at Apple for example, most valuable company on the whole world and 44-47% of their production sites is in ch…

The CPC under Deng, unlike the CPSU, paid attention to the materialism part of Marxism, recognized that the business of America is business, and realized that the Western ruling classes stood to earn trillions from cooperation. In the west, still fresh from remembering WW2, bankers felt that trade linkages could prevent WW3. In hindsight, it was an obvious and brilliant strategy.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#297

Post by doubloon »

avs733 wrote: post #233
doubloon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to apologize on behalf of other ycombo users for your top comment being downvoted, and also for people calling workers "oxen". I feel I seldom hear in tech circles (on the internet at least) the empirical evidence around the Toyota Production System. Maybe I didn't either until I read "The machine that changed the world" by Womack, Jones, and Roos. It is a historical fact that Toyota produced higher qual…

> I would like to apologize on behalf of other ycombo users for your top comment being downvoted, and also for people calling workers "oxen". I appreciate it but no need - the people doing that (typically) are as much victims of this propaganda. They aren't malicious, they have been learned the same culture we're talking about. Funny enough, the first place I ever interned had attempted to do a lights out factory in…

dude i could listen to you talk for hours.. do you have a book?

i really feel like alot of this same stuff could apply to jobs inside service / data processing industry. It reminds me of "Gladys the L6", the person six levels down in a bureaucracy who is the only one who actually knows how things are actually working with the spaghetti of multiple legacy systems and arcane rules. Michael Lewis wrote about this case at Athena Health

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#298

Post by ramblenode »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #291
ramblenode wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to a case that breaks both US and Chinese law? Otherwise, this conversation will be about vague generalizations. The issue is that IP is a legal creation, so it can only be stolen if it is recognized in the first place. That said, it does not seem like differences in IP law are usually what people are referring to when talking about IP theft. That is why I brought up the WTO, which is a forum in which t…

> The issue is that IP is a legal creation, so it can only be stolen if it is recognized in the first place The same is true of all crimes, they are all legal creations. And from what I can tell, China has the concept of IP. They're protective of their own, for example. It sounds, then, like you're now agreeing that the IP is being ignored, just saying it's okay because China don't want to recognize it. If not, I wil…

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. US law is not the same thing as international law. Of course US law, including IP standards, will not necessarily be recognized outside the US unless part of a treaty. It's similar to how the US doesn't recognize mainland China's claim over Taiwan.

That said, there are treaties covering IP that both the US and China are a party to which require certain mutual recognition. The US has sued China in the WTO for violating the IP provisions, but has not won most of those cases (AFAIK).

US companies can also sue Chinese companies in China for IP infringement and some of those cases have been won. Chinese courts tend to award much more limited damages than US courts, so US companies don't find this satisfactory. But again, that is a difference of law.

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#299

Post by tacocataco »

vuln wrote: post #196

PE firms and Opiate Addiction gutted the US manufacturing industry over the last 30 years. It’s not hard to see, but since a significant portion of these workers are white men, no one blinks an eye.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - MLK jr

Re: America's advanced manufacturing problem and how to fix it

#300

Post by mensetmanusman »

gWPVhyxPHqvk wrote: post #277
mensetmanusman wrote: post #4

I work in one of the last remaining large industrial manufacturing labs in the US. Some of my colleagues worked at Bell before that was shuttered. My sense from talking to the previous generation is that financialization of the US has started (finally) failing the American people. The previous generation cashed in on major profits by off shoring (Kodak), but we overdid it. In a round about way our company is run by p…

This is an anecdote. R&D as a percent of US GDP has never been higher than it has been in the 2020s. Even more than back in the 60s. The source of the R&D has changed (less federal government) but it’s not financialization. https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23339#:~:text=The%20ratio%20of... .

https://blog.redpathcpas.com/research-and-development-tax-cr...

It would be interesting if there was a breakdown by technology sector. Ie manufacturing R&D vs. software development R&D.

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