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Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

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Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I'm sitting this looks like an excellent argument for breaking backwards compatibility. All those bullshit hacks are a maintenance and debugging burden for someone and a tax on the whole rest of the operating system -- and I'd argue that it really shows.

The thing about Microsoft is that they developed a framework for doing that kind of thing in a systematic way so it is not so hackish as it sounds. That's an innocent example but do recall that circa 1995-2005 or so, Microsoft looked like a dangerous monopolist and could have been in legal jeopardy if a product that competes with office (say WordPerfect) quit working when they went from Win 95 to Win 98 or Win 2k to…

Yes, people used undocumented functions, which were left undocumented as they were a subject to change, and accused Microsoft of not understanding software development or thought that those undocumented APIs were somehow better than the recommended documented ones. When stuff crushed after Microsoft changed an API people would be accusing them for deliberately breaking their applications and what not. I remember the hostility in those years 95-2005 towards Microsoft. There is still some cult in some Internet communities where trashing anything developed by Microsoft is seen as some kind of expertise or something by usually self-proclaimed experts.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I'm sitting this looks like an excellent argument for breaking backwards compatibility. All those bullshit hacks are a maintenance and debugging burden for someone and a tax on the whole rest of the operating system -- and I'd argue that it really shows.

The issue is at that time updates for most shrink wrapped software were almost non existent and distribution even worse. Windows had an update facility and I bet you sim city for dos did not. So, either windows yielded and patched it’s behavior to run sim city or sim city users couldn’t run it under windows full stop until maxis distributed a new distribution on media. In todays world it looks like a ludicrous soluti…

And it's worth emphasizing that Microsoft was/is incentivized to do this because especially with popular software, such bugs have a chance of resulting in users blaming Windows even if in reality it's the gamedev's fault.

Similarly to how GPU vendors are incentivized to patch their drivers to fix bugs in a popular game release because the bugs might be blamed on the vendor instead of the dev.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#293
post #220

Even more “insanity”: z/OS (aka OS360 aka MVS) supports programs going back to the 60s and I just talked with a DE at IBM who is still using a program compiled circa Apollo 11 mission.

That's common in the mainframe world. Unisys (ex Univac) still has its Dorado mainframes binary compatible with the Univac 1100 released in 1962.

I thought the Unisys mainframes have been running emulated on X86/X86-64 for a while? I assume they have some sort of binary translator.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the day it wasn’t even reasonably possible. You got a floppy/CD from the store and that was the end of the story. I mean, this is “Netscape just came out” times.

Yep. At best you had an updated version on the next run, but even that was unlikely.

My AOL updates in the mailbox always lagged behind, week after week...

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really bothers me and I'm young, I am TIRED of applications FORCING restarts, and other garbage as a software culture. You are doing something? Oh sorry our developer team thought it would be smart to crash your whatever task you are doing by force to give you a 2 line changelog. Typing a dm on discord or talking to people? boom random restart to force update, using firefox nightly? sorry you cannot use it as yo…

Re: Firefox, Firefox only demands restarting if you changed the copy of Firefox out from under it. This only happens if you're managing Firefox with an external package manager, or you're building from the repo and installed a new copy. If you run Firefox from its default mechanism, it will update itself and ask to restart before applying the update, and will continue working forever, never updating until you restart…

Might be the case now (Note, I'm talking about Nightly), this was a few years back, I noticed that first it warned that a new version was working and then mysteriously bricked the browser after, complained and they told me that I "shouldn't be using nightly if I don't wanna have the latest updates"... which I do, but I don't wanna be forced into a restart unless it actually breaks?

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#296
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yes however it sort of undermines the "insane compatibility" / "stable API" point if mass-market Windows software produced before the 2001 release of XP mostly doesn't work on modern Windows NT effectively forked Win32 (introduced with Windows 3.1) into something incompatible (meanwhile it all runs on Wine perfectly fine)

What? Windows NT never forked anything. Windows 3.1 introduced Win16 protected mode with segmented memory. Win32s was a backport from a Win32 subset from Windows NT 4.0. Windows NT linage exists since 1993.

I remember Win32s, I think Netscape Navigator needed it. I was thinking Lode Runner, but that was WinG.

I always thought it was backported from Windows 95, thanks for the info.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I'm sitting this looks like an excellent argument for breaking backwards compatibility. All those bullshit hacks are a maintenance and debugging burden for someone and a tax on the whole rest of the operating system -- and I'd argue that it really shows.

And that’s why you stand where you are and Microsoft stand where it does. You’re thinking like an engineer. Microsoft is a business. Backwards compatible is its major core competency.

And yet Apple has famously broken compatibility on a regular basis. Remember when Apple went from Motorola 68000 to Intel x86? They did it by providing direct support to key companies to port their software, and providing Rosetta for applications that could take the performance hit.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try running something from only ONE year ago on Linux and it very often won't work, unless it's an Appimage or Flatpak, or you're on Nix, They might not break userland but Qt and GTK do the breaking for you. Python joined the party recently. Random DBus daemons might be missing, etc.

You can run binaries from decades ago on Linux too. This is about a DOS binary. Well, a command line program that just uses system calls is fine too.

Only if it is statically linked with everything it needs. Otherwise good luck resolving dependencies.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#299
post #284

Surely there's some kind of legacy Windows containerization / subsystem / emulation technology that would automagically handle such things by now?

Well, there's the WoW64 layer, but nothing particularly sophisticated beyond that.

For the most part the old DLL interface (kernel32 et al) just sticks around indefinitely even as parts are officially deprecated. Microsoft is careful not to break their public interfaces.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#300

Even more “insanity”: z/OS (aka OS360 aka MVS) supports programs going back to the 60s and I just talked with a DE at IBM who is still using a program compiled circa Apollo 11 mission.

What's a DE? Also did they tell you what the program did?

Other systems that will run or automatically translate > 30 yr old binaries:

- I believe IBM i on POWER {i5/AS400} will run stuff from System 38 (1980).

- HPE Nonstop (aka Tandem Guardian ) on X86-64 will run or translate binaries from the original proprietary TNS systems (late 1970s) and MIPS systems (1991).

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