A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now • Hacker News Board

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#291

Post by masklinn » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:14 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #208

dragonwriter wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulation distributes heat release over time, at the cost of temperature control. If its going to be used all the time, especially with multiple units, distributing release over time doesn’t change much but the delay between first turning it on and full effect to the surroundings, and the impact on temperature control is still there. Insulation is only effective with intermittent use.

No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Insulation slows heat flow and thus means the hot side rises to closer to the temperature of the heat source and thus there is less energy transfer.

> If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7.

Water heaters are not running 24/7.

The entire point of water heater insulation is that you run them to heat up the water in the tank, then the water sits there at temperature, and when needed it has a fast response time (and also actually provides hot water as the heating loops generally don't have the heating capacity to bring the water up from ambient or sometimes just above freezing to sanitary at the flow rates users ask for).

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#292

Post by hoosieree » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #22

And how much power did it consume? What were the materials used for those fridges and paint? How much did they weight? How stable was the temperature in the freezer and refrigerator? Did those fridges had any mechanism to avoid frost formations? How much did they cost? Point is, the needs of a fridge barely changed in 70 years, the only real expectation we had was that they would become cheaper to buy and run and eas…

These are valid points, yet anecdotally it seems like modern fridges are less reliable and require more frequent replacement. Old fridges were "inefficient" because they didn't have an integrated variable speed motor and control board. But modern fridges seem to suffer a critical failure of some mysterious component 2 months after their warranty expires. This component can only be fixed by replacing the entire control board, and that's half the cost of a new one. Wouldn't you rather just buy a new one?

But if you zoom out, is it globally more efficient to trash the whole fridge every 5 years, or use an "inefficient" fridge with replaceable parts for 40 years?

Modern appliances are all slowly heading in the same direction.

It starts with DRM on replaceable items like water filters. Then un-mutable advertisements playing on the screen. Then subscription fees for "options". Then subscription fees for things like being able to open the doors. Then fridge-as-a-service where you rent the entire fridge and the fridge vendor resells your personal information to anyone and everyone.

There will be a "vintage replica" premium market for rich hipsters to enjoy the luxury of a fridge without any of these features. But this market will be short-lived. The vintage fridges are just modern fridges dressed up in vintage sheet metal. They buy their critical components from the same wholesalers as the DRM vendors, so eventually they'll be compelled to put in the same features. Maybe they'll be permitted to use an old-timey font on a round touchscreen with a chrome bezel, to maintain the vintage vibe.

I picture the execs of these companies studying Black Mirror episodes in darkened boardrooms... "Are you writing this down, Dave? This show is a gold mine!"

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#293

Post by Qwertious » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #208

dragonwriter wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulation distributes heat release over time, at the cost of temperature control. If its going to be used all the time, especially with multiple units, distributing release over time doesn’t change much but the delay between first turning it on and full effect to the surroundings, and the impact on temperature control is still there. Insulation is only effective with intermittent use.

No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Insulation slows heat flow and thus means the hot side rises to closer to the temperature of the heat source and thus there is less energy transfer.

>No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7.

Hey, if your taps are emitting a stream of hot water 24/7 then you should call a plumber. Expect your water bill to drop massively.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#294

Post by MostlyStable » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

I agree with some of the comments that this fridge doesn't actually seem that much better than modern fridges (other than _not_ having some of the worst modern features, but you can still get fridges without those).

However, it does seem to me like _lots_ of things are getting worse over time, through a combination of removal of features (phones: IR blaster, FM radio, headphone jack, etc), addition of features (kitchen appliances: wifi connectivity, touchscreens, etc.), or lack of repairability (everything).

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#295

Post by masklinn » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #266

masklinn wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of those features also seem quite debatable. - The big pile of fruits and veggies is a good way to pressure-bruise them, and also to trap ethylene, and you can usually get the crisper drawers out so not sure I see the difference. - Special compartments for butter and cheese are a completely unnecessary lack of flexibility. - Metal roll-out trays / drawers exist in high-end fridges, there are also drawer fridges…

* why would you move those to a bucket of ice cubes losing 1/3rd the freezer space and congealing the cubes together? * I use a portion of my freezer space for ice cubes. I make a batch of ice in the ice machine, and then freeze it until it gets low and/or used. My fridge doesn't have an ice machine and this uses less freezer space than ice cube trays. I use the ice to make delicious alcoholic drinks, and would happi…

Sure but

1. that's your choice and you have the flexibility to do that

2. you don't have 4 ice cube trays as a fixed feature of the freezer plus a separate ice bucket, half the space of which is a quick release system for the cubes from the trays

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#296

Post by Qwertious » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

gok wrote: post #97

starbugs wrote: post #3

> Thing is, producing crappy, cookie-cutter, uninspired, overpriced junk that falls apart within 5 years (generously speaking) pays more to the shareholders. That's how we got from there to here. This summarizes it quite well for me.

This is going to shock people, but appliance manufacturers in the 1950s also had shareholders.

Over time, investors have become less invested in the companies they invest into. It's a cultural thing, it seems.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#297

Post by dublin » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #250

dragontamer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refrigerators might be a bad example because we got rid of highly effective refrigerants on purpose to patch a hole in the ozone layer. Or perhaps more accurately, to stop poking a giant hole in the ozone layer.

I don't think freon fridges were inherently mechanically any more reliable than fridges using modern refrigerants. If anything slightly less so all else being equal, I'd have thought.

ALL older appliances were way more reliable than any you can buy today. I'm just old enough that all our appliances are from the 1980s, plus a huge chest freezer from the 60s or 70s bought secondhand on Craigslist for $45. They are simple, reliable, faster, and work better than their modern counterparts. Our refrigerator, bought in 1989, has never had any problem at all.

They can be easily fixed, and parts are still available - unlike my Mom's 5-8 year-old Samsung and LG appliances, which will have to be thrown away and replaced soon, because parts are NOT available. As for efficiency - they're not really much less efficient than new ones, especially when you figure that each of them has outlasted a half-dozen or more modern appliances.

When the washing machine tub cracked a couple of years ago, I asked the local parts shop if it was worth getting our old Kenmore(Whirlpool) machine fixed, and when he found out it was from 1987, the manager said, "Don't ever get rid of it! You can't buy anything made that well today at any price!" So I spent $80 on a new tub (plus $75 for labor, since installing it is a pain). That's one of only two major repairs it's ever needed (I swapped out the synchronous clock driven cycle controller myself 15 years ago) - it still runs just like it did when new.

It's certainly possible that all my appliances could outlive me...

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#298

Post by klyrs » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:28 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #146

masklinn wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure. One of the difficulties is it's become very hard to know if an item is more expensive because: - it's better quality - it's full of bullshit - it's marketing However 3-5k for a fridge is well into "professional kitchen commercial refrigerator / refrigerated cabinet" range. At…

You don't need to go to anywhere near that price to get before you hit a sweet spot. For like $600 including tax one of the biggest retailers in the UK will sell you the most energy efficient fridge on the market with a 5 year guarantee. Like most products, you're reaching diminishing returns at a certain point and that seems to be it as far as I can tell.

Frankly, a 5 year guarantee is pathetic. Appliances lasting 25 years was once unremarkable.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#299

Post by ddoolin » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

Night_Thastus wrote: post #265

starbugs wrote: post #3

> Thing is, producing crappy, cookie-cutter, uninspired, overpriced junk that falls apart within 5 years (generously speaking) pays more to the shareholders. That's how we got from there to here. This summarizes it quite well for me.

I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now: * Strong regulation on energy use by appliances (modern fridges are much, much more efficient than ones from 70 years ago) * Extreme competition from companies all over the world * Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all The…

> The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true.

I don't think you're wrong, but I think the why is the crux of the issue, as in why are consumers so cheap? IMO, it's the same reason businesses are happy to cut corners to make them as cheap as possible as well. Turns out it's a negative feedback cycle.

Some consumers pay less, so businesses charge less, so businesses pay less, so their employees (customers by another name) have less to spend, etc.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#300

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:31 PM UTC

dublin wrote: post #297

rsynnott wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think freon fridges were inherently mechanically any more reliable than fridges using modern refrigerants. If anything slightly less so all else being equal, I'd have thought.

ALL older appliances were way more reliable than any you can buy today. I'm just old enough that all our appliances are from the 1980s, plus a huge chest freezer from the 60s or 70s bought secondhand on Craigslist for $45. They are simple, reliable, faster, and work better than their modern counterparts. Our refrigerator, bought in 1989, has never had any problem at all. They can be easily fixed, and parts are still…

I had an old chest freezer from the 80s.

You had to manually defrost it for it to keep working. Modern ones have automatic defrosters and other such features.

Yes, the old one "kept working", but at worse-and-worse reliability as the frost built up, until you manually removed everything from the freezer and ran a proper defrost cycle (aka: turn it off, wait for everything to melt, sponge out the water).

I think I'll stick with my "less reliable" heater-inside-a-freezer with an escape hole to automatically siphon + pump the water out. More moving parts means less reliability, but these features are absolutely worth the loss in reliability.