Live data from Hacker News

The Never Married, a New Normal

psychologytoday.com

291–300 of 450 posts

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#291
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can sacrifice my ego through meditation and acts of charity/volunteer work. No need to risk half of my current assets and future income on the whims of some potentially capricious other person, who probably doesn't like me very much anyways. Good luck to you, however.

> who probably doesn't like me very much anyways This feels like a straw man, or straw woman, as the case may be. Why would you even consider marrying someone who probably doesn't like you very much? And why would they consider marrying you? (He says, fresh off watching the finale of Succession.)

>Why would you even consider marrying someone who probably doesn't like you very much? And why would they consider marrying you?

Because many people act very different during the dating stage, and don't show their true personalities and preferences. They want to marry you because it's advantageous for them.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No need to risk half of my current assets and future income Most people see being in a position of vulnerability with respect to another human being whom they trust as a wonderful thing, which gives them a great deal of every day happiness. You see this vulnerability as merely negative, a threat to your individualistic pursuit of wealth ("assets and income"). You have a right to live however you want, of course, bu…

I'm certain this vulnerability does bring value to some, especially people like the original commenter. However, consider that it's possible to gain something similar in value without certain risks? My wealth is not my most important part of my life but it is valuable. Why should I risk the ability to retire, to travel as well as the security of finances, when I find so much meaning in the world already? Why do I nee…

The risk of marriage is what makes the commitment meaningful. Of course, you can always substitute for marriage with other forms of commitment in partnerships, marriage is just a particular choice.

In your writing, however, it rather appears to me that you do not see the value in committing to another person at all - in whatever shape or form. In that case, I would say that the desire for marriage is likely to remain an enigma to you.

In rational terms, consider marriage (or another form of commitment) as a dynamic non cooperative game where a long term mutually beneficial equilibrium is reached.

Briefly, imagine you meet another person to whom you actually want to commit to: you derive utility from demonstrating vulnerability under risk.

This is the case, because the other person similarly commits to you. This mutual equilibrium is only possible with mutual trust. In turn, trust in the other person grows with mutual commitment. Trust is the driver of non ego behavior, shared understanding, and sensemaking. For evolutionary reasons, it also leads to a feeling of safety and reduces the impact of many day to day stressors. Of course, trust is only built up if the demonstrated commitment occurs under real risk and increases then over time, where the initial jump however determines largely the final equilibrium.

The equilibrium is high utility not only due to the feeling of safety and partnership, but also because a high trust environment removes transaction costs.

In turn, commitment is higher in value if the choice to deviate is meaningful, if the risk is real, if your money and income aren’t safe. If you jumped, and your partner equally jumped, both without knowing with certainty. Thus demonstrated commitment leads to a higher utility equilibrium as outlined above.

I hope this game theoretic analysis indicates to you some benefits of something like marriage.

Having lived both extremely independently and married, I strongly believe that my marriage equilibrium is far superior.

I also know that trying to get the same benefits without commitment, that is, without taking an inherent risk on another person, would not lead to the same outcome. After all, without risk, its not really meaningful.

While marriage is just one form, I strongly believe to know that today’s culture of risk aversion in partnership leads to lower utility and long term happiness.

People are afraid to lose or give anything up. In turn, they will gain less.

I acknowledge fully that I would not have understood the above before my marriage.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#293
post #108

I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. By choosing to get married and intentional build a family, I knew I was sacrificing a lot of ego and choosing to give…

> living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. This. And ultimately having kids with this person is another ego-exposing (and hopefully ego busting - but that's not guaranteed) exercise that contemporary societies gave up trying with varying excuses ranging "economical" to "climate saving" reasons.

Do you see a lot the argument that having kids is bad for the environment? Can I ask where? I do not disagree, I just rarely hear it, it's something people are afraid to day out loud in my social network, it's socially unacceptable, but it's changing a bit.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#294

> Cohabitation has become a popular alternative; living together is a less complicated relationship model that comes with an easy escape hatch (compared with marriage) if the relationship fails This seems like a bit of a false promise... Once you commingle finances, own a house together, have children, and so on, there's no "easy escape hatch." Plus thinking of having an "easy escape hatch" probably does not do wonde…

This might be dependent on the country. This may be a choice between "no escape hatch at all" and "no easy escape hatch". In the Philippines, a divorce is legally impossible, but it is not a crime for a man and a woman to live together and have children without marrying. So why bother?

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#295

I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. By choosing to get married and intentional build a family, I knew I was sacrificing a lot of ego and choosing to give…

You seem to be describing a committed relationship?

For me the significant markers of committed relationships were first moving in together, then perhaps buying a home together (in those places where that was still affordable), and then for those that wanted them and by far the most important having children together.

Many of my friends and family have gotten married along the way too but it never felt like a big deal because by the point they got married they'd already been together for several years. It was a nice opportunity for a celebration! But having children together seems the far greater commitment. Marriages may end but even if you split up you'll still be parents together.

I grew up in a far less religious society than the US so maybe this just reflects a different cultural background. The US has always been more religious than Europe while also having far higher rates of teen births and children living in single parent households. But US rates of religious identification and teen births have both been falling rapidly over the past couple of decades.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they have their own account that you transfer $X/month into. If you can't agree as a couple on what each person should be spending, then the relationship is on bad footing to begin with.

You need then all of these: Budgeted amount for say toilet roll. Decide whose bank account to use for it. How to re balance as expenses change. For each expense or group of expenses. Each spend kinda needs to be tagged. It is a lot more work. Might be OK if you have no kids and are renting.

I'm married (with kids and not renting) and don't have a joint bank account and it's not anything like that complicated. We worked out a set amount per month that gets transferred from my account to hers based on the main bills (mortgage, etc) coming out of my account as the higher earner. We review that occasionally based on total spending and income. The rest more or less works itself out.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#297

I’ll risk it and defend marriage to this crowd. To me getting married was about getting out of myself. As someone who got married later in life, I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Relationships were shallow and lasted only so long as convenient. By choosing to get married and intentional build a family, I knew I was sacrificing a lot of ego and choosing to give…

> I’d spent decades living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it

Interestingly, this is why I broke up with a fairly long term partner. I just wanted to do what I want when I wanted to do it. We didn't have any kids, so that was easy. But I lost a bunch of money from our shared house/possessions, I just let them have almost everything because I didn't care too much.

Maybe I did it in the wrong order, and if I spent decades doing what I wanted first, things would have been different. But right now, the ability to do what I want when I want is awesome and I couldn't be happier.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#298
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm married, but I live in a separate house to my wife. I've started to see others in similar situations and apparently it's a trend these days. "Living Apart Together", or "LAT": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_apart_together

What does it mean? You see other partners?

Yes, but even without that there are a fair number of people I'm aware of who live (monogomously) in seperate flats/houses to their spouse.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#300
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who probably doesn't like me very much anyways This feels like a straw man, or straw woman, as the case may be. Why would you even consider marrying someone who probably doesn't like you very much? And why would they consider marrying you? (He says, fresh off watching the finale of Succession.)

It's a personal judgement based on personal experience. I asked those same questions before deciding that maybe dating or marriage was not for me. However, you should make your own judgement call based off of your own experiences. Just be aware that something between 40 and 45% of first time marriages fail in North America (depending on the study).

> It's a personal judgement based on personal experience.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that nobody likes you? If so, then maybe that's a "you" problem and not a "them" problem...

> I asked those same questions before deciding that maybe dating or marriage was not for me.

Forget marriage for a second, you don't even want to date? If so, I'm not sure you're really one to be giving advice here, to people who are interested in having relationships.

Post reply on HN