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Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#291

Post by 99_00 »

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

>it makes logical sense why there would be correlation

The fact that this is "obvious" to well informed parents who take their kids mental health seriously makes it more likely that this is correlation and not causation.

At risk kids will be given smartphones.

Not at risk kids will not.

I suspect that there are elements of correlation and causation involved. I don't think it's a simple relationship.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#292

Post by obtusifolia »

civeng wrote: post #146

OP here. Parent of 3, ages 12, 15 and 18 navigating this issue irl. Although I believe good parents aren't super rigid on any issue, I feel pretty strongly on this one. It's the parents responsibility and it's hard since it requires your good example. No phone, age 0 to 10-12, to the Lightphone (absolutely love this product) age 13 to 16-18, to a smart phone. I believe the progression is pushed off as long as possibl…

I'd love to hear more on how this has been working out for you and your kids. Do they seem to grasp why you have these rules in place? Was there any pushback from their side? Did they ever complain about being left out of social circles because of these rules?

I'm not a parent, but this seems an awfully important issue to get right when it comes to children.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#293

Post by adastra22 »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #264
adastra22 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids don’t have phones. They are the only ones among their peers who don’t have a phone. I told them they can get one when they write an app and get it listed on the App Store, not before. Most people I tell this to are impressed. The only time I got crucified was the last time I mentioned it on HN. This seems to be a particular bone to pick that HN users have.

How would they have any kind of interest in making an app without an interest garnered by using the device? My interest in technology was garnered from getting a device then wanting to do more with it.

She has a Chromebook from school, and she uses my phone and tablet with permission and supervision. She just needs to demonstrate a certain level of capability and maturity to have her own device(s).

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#294

Post by 23B1 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #84
23B1 wrote: post #24

This is one of those obvious correlations that for some reason everyone needs to question. It's not the cellphone itself that's the problem, it's the addictive content readily accessible therein. I'm no luddite, but it's pretty obvious that humans aren't meant to be bent over little black rectangles all day, addicted to our own insecurities.

By that token, humans weren't meant to get medical procedures on chronical illnesses and live up to 100+ years. What humans were meant to doesn't really help, and what long lasting impacts smart phone will have is pretty much up for debate. My view on this is, we have natural defense + evolutionary mechanisms to deal with potential exctintion events. If you really want to look at the issue at such a basic level, tell…

I think looking at things like the speed of evolution (through the lens of neuroscience or sociology) relative to the speed of industrialization and see some pretty clear markers as to what we're 'supposed' to be doing.

I'm not saying we're 'supposed' to be hunting wooly mammoths with flintknapped spears – since we did that for hundreds of thousands of years before the Information Age – but I'm fairly positive most of the science points to sedentary lifestyles (combined with the 'existential dread' that the media uses to make its bread) are not what we're 'supposed' to be doing if we want to be happy as individuals.

And I think widespread individual happiness probably contributes to a healthier society overall.

Not arguing for sticking our heads in the sand or doing away with computers – just making the point that moderation – even heavy moderation – is probably A Good Thing for kids and humans in general.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#295

Post by mordae »

fatneckbeard wrote: post #221
alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

HN prob full of people who make their living off smartphones reminds me of Oil / coil industry people who dont want to talk abt climate change never easy to come to terms with your life work has to change or stop.

Sorry, never made living from smart phones. Still don't think it's a good idea to ban them for kids.

Instead of actually making the world a fun place to live in, someone calls for renaming git master branch to main, sorry, to ban phones. It's just posing.

Never easy to come to terms with your life's work is actually making lives of other people miserable by exploiting them for a rich guy's third yacht. And that you should just say no.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#296

Post by hotpotamus »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #99
alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

Gotta love the correlation is not causation crowd. Do they think Haidt and others haven't considered that? It's like the first thing that everyone considers. I personally think that HN dismisses these ideas because it would mean dire consequences for their high paying entrenched employers.

> I personally think that HN dismisses these ideas because it would mean dire consequences for their high paying entrenched employers.

I mean, the Sinclair quote about the difficulty of getting someone to understand something when their salary depends on not understanding it is a cliche at this point, right? I suppose no one has ever paid me enough to turn off my conscience, but it seems like I'd have a much easier go of life if that was possible.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#297

Post by lisasays »

afavour wrote: post #100
alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

No, social media does.

It's smartphones + social media then. The main point is, before phones, SM didn't have nearly the reach and toxicity that it has now.

Don't be so snarky.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#298

Post by adastra22 »

philsnow wrote: post #243
nvrmnd wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My oldest got a phone this year, the real issue is that we need to communicate with her when she goes to a friend's place, soccer practice, and so on. Primarily for safety reasons. I imagine for most people their children will reach an age where they are more autonomous and require a phone for safety well before the kiddos are writing iOS applications.

I got my older kids apple watches set up in family/parent/whatever mode for this. They have cell modems (requirement for family setup, they're $5/mo each on my t-mobile plan), can send and receive texts, can send and receive phone calls. If you don't want to use apple watches because of their ridiculously poor battery life (fair criticism; I have trouble remembering to charge mine regularly, so getting the kids to do…

This is what I did. She has an Apple Watch which she can use to call or message us. Battery life is an issue, but we’ve instilled the habit of charging overnight every night.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#299

Post by 23B1 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #275
23B1 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

Neither of your examples are inferring causation from correlation, they are just questions about how to define wet and blue.

Yes, but they're obvious things that could be dissected ad nauseam in the course of academic – as opposed to pragmatic – discourse.

Water is wet, sky is blue, obsessive social media use is bad. I understand this is HN and the Internet, and so niggling academic arguments are fun and all, but sometimes it's okay for the obvious to be uncontroversial.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#300

Post by mordae »

giantg2 wrote: post #196
alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

"give children the ability to see everyone who is smarter than they are, prettier than they are, and so on." It's not just them seeing it, but everyone else too. I think with the advances in media, everyone is comparing themselves and others to these higher benchmarks. Expectations seem to be incredibly skewed these days. It feels like people expect me to be some expert dev wizard who is rich, witty, has abs, and an…

You are right.

We are definitely missing a positive, encouraging, cooperative culture.

Which is kinda as intended, isn't it? They sure told us in school to make sure we market ourselves well to our future employers. Stressing the need for "healthy" competition.

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