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When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

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Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#291

Quickly scanning the comments here I didn't find anyone mentioning this, a bit further in the thread: > catalinmpit: Too bad the content written by ChatGPT is average at best. > paulg: That's a step up for most people. That's what my impression is: yes, ChatGPT produces mediocre writing and Copilot produces mediocre code, but it's already more legible than many (not sure if "most") people are capable of. I'm not sure…

The flip side of that is now ChatGPT is a formidable tool for English second language speakers to express themselves in English.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is the bias of a very smart, highly educated, highly capable person. If you are already an excellent writer and coder, can take vast fields of knowledge and blossoming ideas and spit them out onto paper in skilled form with minimal anxiety, GPT probably does very little for you. Maybe you could see if you were missing something very obvious and average. I read for probably 8-12 hours a day. I write e…

The thing is this will rob a whole generation of that learning. To struggle to learn to write, code, and all that is how you become a professional. A lot of people will never develop these skills, and the chasm between the talented and untalented will only grow.

I'm not sure. With every generation some tech pops up that'll make every next generation worse off and in the end there's just something else people spend time on. My generation built their own PC's, struggled to install Windows by popping tons of floppies in a drive and hoping none of the steps failed, our internet connection made sounds and we learned DHCP the hard way.

The generation after me is hardly able to reset their iPhone if it freezes without going to a help desk for help. Meanwhile, that same generation is using the cameras in their phones, readily available video editing software and processing power to create content like no generation has ever before. They are able to entertain millions of people around the globe while doing it and some build incredible wealth at the same time.

My grandfather built his own house. My generation gets their house delivered in prefab parts that are then welded together. Nobody really cares that we've lost (the majority of) the ability to build houses or blacksmith katanas.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#293
post #14

Sometimes I wonder if I'm using the same ChatGPT as everyone else. I pay for GPT4 access in ChatGPT, and it is a really terrible writer. I also pay for Copilot, and I think a can count the number of times it has been helpful with one hand. I'm trying to get on this hype train, but I'm left with an empty feeling every time I try to seriously spend some time with these new tools.

Totally agree, I also pay for api access and I am still trying to figure out how I can benefit from using it when it gives me blatantly incorrect commands or wrong answers. I can see it guide me in the right direction if I have a more generic question but even then, if I am not specific enough I fear I might go down a rabbit hole that ends no where. It may be better than google in finding something but when I manage…

> Totally agree, I also pay for api access and I am still trying to figure out how I can benefit from using it when it gives me blatantly incorrect commands or wrong answers.

So here's one that saved me a bunch of time:

https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2535443

Basically, I knew the package could do what I wanted; I knew it was almost certainly in GPT-4's data set; I could do it myself, but it would involve searching through all the documentation and figuring out the right bits. It just did it for me.

Now there were a few minor bugs: It duplicated a buggy error message, and at some point later it called a "Subtree" method rather than a "Tree" method. But those were a lot easier to fix than writing the code from scratch.

Once I had a list of 27 book names I wanted put into "canonical order" and in the form of a golang array. I could have done it myself but it would have been tedious; I just pasted the list into GPT-4, asked it what I wanted, and out popped the result.

Here's another place it was helpful recently; I prompted:

"We're hiring a new community manager for the $PROJECT. I'd like you to help me develop some interview questions. What information to you need about the role to help you develop more useful questions?"

The questions it asked me about the role were really good; just answering the questions was quite a useful exercise, and I'm sure the resulting document will be a good intro to whomever we hire. I wouldn't say the resulting interview questions were brilliant, but they were solid, and I used a couple of them.

There are times when "the form" is there for a reason; if you want something re-written in a specific form, GPT-4 can do a good job. I wrote an email recommending something to somebody's managers in a different company in a different country; then I pasted it into GPT-4 and asked if it had any suggestions. It did a fair amount of rewording, of which I decided to take about half. In this case, the "polite form" is there to avoid offense, and it's exactly what I wanted.

I've also asked it to write some Tweets highlighting some specific aspects of an upcoming conference I'm planning. It did a good job coming up with the sort of punchy, tweet-length messages which seem to do really well.

Connecting it to the context of the article: My day job is basically arguing with people on the internet. :-). I do read and write all day every day; but I don't write messages where diplomacy is critical, nor do I write tweets. Perhaps I could get better at those, but I don't think it's worth the effort. Am I the worse off for that? Probably not in the way the author thinks; I don't think being diplomatically polished would change my thinking that much -- much less being able to write punchy tweets.

If I started relying on it for the core writing, however, I'd certainly be selling myself short.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plato's warning is true, actually. Since I started to write, I remember less and less about the things I have written down, because the brain replaces them with a pointer. However, writing for thinking and writing for storage is two different things, and it activates different parts of the brain. I'm an avid pen and paper user, and using a real pen on a paper allows me to think much more deeply. It regulates thinking…

I know this is HN, but can we please stop drawing these vague parallels between basic programming concepts and the functioning of the human brain? No, the brain does not "replace written information with a pointer". I cannot tell you with complete confidence whether writing stuff down improves recall or diminishes it, but I can tell you that you can construct computer analogies in support of either case. I could posi…

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Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#295

I think this can be generalized to, “when you lose the ability to create a certain Form, you also lose some of your ability to imagine new types of that Form, and instead just rely on shuffling existing versions of it around to generate novelty.” A bit wordy, but I have the skill of drawing/sketching in mind. There is a big difference between sketching an idea on a blank sheet of paper, and using some kind of softwar…

Honestly ChatGPT is hot garbage. I can't find inputs to make anything it writes sound like it comes from a real person. It's very good at sounding like a specific, boring person. It's impressive that it has mastered human language, but is it really close to mastering humanity?

I think it is much more useful as a "word processor" than as a source of information. It's really good at reformatting text, changing it into questions/answers, summarizing it, etc.

For example, I'm a huge fan of Anki and I've found ChatGTP to be very helpful for generating questions from a block of text and in formatting Cloze cards. But I don't recommend asking it for information directly.

I wrote a bit about it here: https://neurotechnicians.com/p/generative-ai-and-anki-part-1...

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a huge difference between code generation (be it Copilot or ChatGPT). With Code you still have the compiler that rejects the utter nonsense and then you hopefully have tests to check if what was generated makes sense. With prose it's all your manual work again to check. If your text is mundane it might be trivial but for anything a pg would write I guess an AI is pretty useless in its current state.

I wonder if someone has tried to chain ChatGPT's output with static analyzers/compilers/linters in a loop to improve the final response.

https://github.com/newhouseb/clownfish

Structural Alignment: Modifying Transformers (like GPT) to Follow a JSON Schema

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#297
post #52

Many people find writing very difficult or are not confident about their ability to do it accurately. For people like that, GPT can be a godsend. If they need to write an e-mail or short report for work, they can just give GPT a few bullet points and it will produce a perfectly serviceable, error-free text. People who need to write in a second language will find GPT especially useful, because they can write those bul…

If my entire message can be condensed into a few bullet points that could be fed into ChatGPT, wouldn't it be an insult to my audience's time to provide them with anything but that very list of bullet points? This is exactly the thought that puts me in your category of "people [who] find writing very difficult"

Depending on the situation, a set of bullet points might seem insulting to your audience for other reasons.

Here’s a real-world example. I live in Japan. While I am fluent in Japanese, it is not my first language and I am not confident about writing formal e-mails, as the grammar, vocabulary, and strategies for making requests are quite different from everyday usage. Now, though, I can feed prompts like the following to GPT-4:

“Compose an e-mail in Japanese as follows:

Sender: [my name and affiliation in Japanese]

Recipient: [name of company in Japanese]

Content: Request to visit the company to tell them about [my product name in Japanese], which is our new accounting software that uses AI to streamline work. Tell them that I can visit their headquarters at any time on any weekday. Ask them to reply by e-mail or to call my mobile at [number].”

In a few seconds, it produced a much better e-mail than I would have been able to write without a lot of effort or someone else’s help [1]. From my experience, I can say with confidence that GPT-4’s e-mail is much more likely to elicit a response than anything I could compose by myself. (I would change one or two things in its version before sending it, though.)

Millions of people around the world are like me: doing much of their work in a second language and often feeling at a disadvantage to native speakers, especially when writing for formal or public-facing purposes. GPT-4 is a great tool for people like us, as well as for people who are not confident about writing in their first language.

[1] https://www.gally.net/temp/202212chatgpt/20230511-email-comp...

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is the bias of a very smart, highly educated, highly capable person. If you are already an excellent writer and coder, can take vast fields of knowledge and blossoming ideas and spit them out onto paper in skilled form with minimal anxiety, GPT probably does very little for you. Maybe you could see if you were missing something very obvious and average. I read for probably 8-12 hours a day. I write e…

The thing is this will rob a whole generation of that learning. To struggle to learn to write, code, and all that is how you become a professional. A lot of people will never develop these skills, and the chasm between the talented and untalented will only grow.

I recall a study whose result said that beginners improve faster when they're told the solutions right away, and experts improve faster when they're given time to figure things on their own.

Struggling as a learning tool is important, but there's a good chance the fastest path to expertise is to start with examples of how to do it, and delay that struggle a bit.

What you don't want is to keep the crutch forever and never struggle. That would be a sure path to stagnation.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#300
There are multiple ways to interpret this, as evidenced by the diversity of comments here; prejudice was the first thing that came to mind for me. Dyslexia is a condition that makes writing arduous due to such challenges as visual confusion between symbols, lack of memory for unusual spellings and difficulty comprehending abstract concepts from words alone. It's not merely a matter of preference to 'hate' writing. To those who have dyslexia, Large Language Models like ChatGPT could be a huge relief: might this finally be the spell-checker able to intelligently correct those misspellings which are so extreme that even non-dyslexic people might stumble on?

"When you lose the ability to speak, you also lose some of your ability to think."

"When you lose the ability to dance, you also lose some of your ability to think."

"When you lose the ability to see, you also lose some of your ability to think."

I hope these variations illustrate that writing unlocks only one way of thinking, and to some it's no great loss to replace it!

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