Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#291

Post by lesuorac » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #207

mantas wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we have to put up with Russia's expansions due to „grievances“ that some other expansions were denied or questioned? It's funny how Russia always pretend to be a victim when it's the aggressor. God forbid someone endangers „rightfully conquested“ territories :D

> Why put up with Russia expansion Why put up with NATO expansion? Russia's expansion is also totally defensive! wink-wink > It's funny how Russia always pretend to be a victim It's ironic how Russia is always assumed to be a passive unresponsive corpse with no concerns or perspective and memory of its own. I wonder if it's even hypothetically possible for people to try to fairly grasp that perspective, otherwise Eur…

> Why put up with NATO expansion? Russia's expansion is also totally defensive! wink-wink

The difference between NATO's expansion and Russia's expansion is that Finland is not under a threat of violence from NATO. Quite clearly Russia is threatening Ukraine with violence if it doesn't become part of Russia.

That would be why Russia's expansion isn't totally defensive. I mean, it's defensive for Russia sure. Just not for Ukraine.

Similar to the old joke. A man from American tells his Soviet friend; freedom is being able to criticize Regan from outside the White House without being arrested. His Soviet friend tells him; we have freedom too! You can criticize Regan from outside the Kremlin as well!

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#292

Post by _djo_ » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

staringback wrote: post #278

_djo_ wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. NATO deployed some forces in Afghanistan as a result of the triggering of Article 5 in response to the 9/11 attacks, though it wasn't an all-out action and wasn't carried out through NATO's command structures. NATO did not deploy offensive forces into Iraq as an organisation. Some NATO members did on their own accord outside of NATO, but the organisation itself only ever had a non-combat training and advisory mis…

What about Yugoslavia in 1999?

What about it? It wasn't part of the original question.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#293

Post by giantrobot » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:59 PM UTC

majkinetor wrote: post #152

tokai wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>BRICS surpassed the G7 in terms of GDP Maybe. Its hard to be sure when autocratic countries lie about their economic data. edit: for those two with their "everybody lies and are awful" argument (one of the oldest and most beloved Russian tactics whataboutism). You will properly not get it if you don't already understand it - but issues with accuracy has nothing to with doctoring all your numbers to keep the gravy tr…

What makes you so sure G7 countries are 100% honest?

Fire the whataboutism canons!

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#294

Post by prepend » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:59 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #222

BurningFrog wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Though it's good to remember the Soviet Union did even worse things to Russia.

Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. That’s a bit like lamenting that how messed up an abusers knuckles got after hitting it on folks faces for so long.

I can’t reply to comment under this that claimed that people in Moscow were from all across USSR so I’m replying here.

The Soviet Union was still ruled by Russians [0]… “ From 1919 until 1991, 89 members of the Politburo were Russians (which makes up 68 percent). In distant second were Ukrainians, who had 11 members in the Politburo, making up 8 percent. In third place are both ethnic Jews and Georgians, who had 4 members respectively.”

It was less than the population since by population , 80% are Russian [1], but still shows that the USSR was ruled by Russians.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_of_the_Communist_Par...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1989)

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#295

Post by staringback » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:59 PM UTC

boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

70 billion of US taxpayer money isn't even lifting a finger?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#296

Post by hypertele-Xii » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

I was born when the Soviet Union fell. All my childhood I watched media like James Bond and played games like Command & Conquer about Russian invasion, saw my extended family suffer the generational trauma of war, and being male, am forced by threat of imprisonment to personally accept social responsibility for sacrificing my life defending our country from Russian invasion,

I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare is over.

Just hoping we can prevent WW3, or at the very least win it together.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#297

Post by jcranmer » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #261

Convolutional wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The Winter War overlapped the 1940s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War > Russia could have rolled into Finland in 1945 Unlikely.

The Continuation War ran from 1941 through 1944. Soviet offensives in 1944 had essentially fully exhausted Finnish reserves; although Finland had managed to withstand the final one, they judged that they couldn't withstand one more. At that point, the Finns sued for peace (the peace terms being a slightly upgraded (for the Soviets) version of the treaty at the end of the Winter War).

So Russia almost certainly could have rolled into Finland in 1945.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#298

Post by vladTheInhaler » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

anonymousab wrote: post #39

khuey wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear weapons can't take and hold territory.

Turning it into a barren wasteland makes it easier to take or hold with disposable conscripts.

I'm not sure that's true. Operating in a radioactive environment makes every single task so much harder. When Russia can barely afford the time to teach its recruits how to shoot, how could they possibly spare the time to teach them how to manage radioactive contamination?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#299

Post by tekla » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

Convolutional wrote: post #238

waihtis wrote: post #177

This is as much a defense policy decision as it is an economic one. Hard for us to get foreign investment living next to a dictatorial warstate unless there's some risk mitigation in place. Not that I don't trust the FDF, pound-for-pound one of the better military organizations out there. (and a happy member of it myself.)

[flagged]

Are you just straight up ignoring the Soviet-Finnish War?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#300

Post by sbaiddn » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

go13 wrote: post #272

sbaiddn wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak of civilized nations, but very generally. I'll ask my friend from Donetsk for the list.

I have a friend from Donetsk too who grew up there, don't worry. He was making molotov's cocktail when there was a threat that russia would capture Kyiv.

Why would I be worried?