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Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

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Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#291

The problem is most people do not try to put any effort into understanding what they are doing by the computer. When you ask your wife to fetch you from work at 5 you don't have to explain: * That she needs to take a car, * That there must be enough fuel in it, * That she has to plan some time for the drive and add extra if traffic is expected on the way, * That she needs to let you know if there are unforeseen circu…

Non-specialists passively build detailed mental models through experience and associations, and when there's no consistency between implementations, there's no way for that to happen. The reason specialists understand computer usage is because they understand how computers function at a low level, and are trained to expect certain necessary features whether or not there are any indications of those features in the in…

> Non-specialists passively build detailed mental models through experience and associations, and when there's no consistency between implementations, there's no way for that to happen.

That implies we're discussing situations where there is no consistency; IME, there is usually consistency but the individual is not _looking for consistency_, so they fail to see it.

> The reason specialists understand computer usage is because they understand how computers function at a low level,

In most situations, specialists look for consistency among unrelated tools, so an unknown tool or an unknown error prompts the individual to go to a known position to understand the unknown parts, e.g. clicking the "Help" menu or appending "--help" to a command, or looking for a log file or a configuration file, etc.

> The physical existence of a car gives a lot of indications of the function of a car.

Which function? Ignition? Acceleration? Gear shifting? Braking? Charging the battery? Refueling?

Sure, folks know that a car is used to travel from place to place, but you're flattening a lot into that -- most folks have near zero idea on maintenance, repair or troubleshooting, even though their car likely has a manual in the glove box and the internet is always on their phone.

> People deal with computers through arbitrary idiosyncratic curated interfaces that for business purposes often plot against their users.

Most functions of a car are hidden and the UI is inconsistent not just across manufacturers but across models and years.

Whatever we're discussing, there are folks with experience and specialized knowledge. There are also folks who lack that experience or specialized knowledge but do understand there is usually consistency across various systems and look for a known point to understand the unknown points.

There are also folks, most folks IME, who won't look for consistency, won't read a manual, won't try to learn what they're missing, and instead will throw their hands up and say "it won't work".

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#292
post #247

If you look at the learning curve of a lot of things that programmers favor over "normal people", they tend to have a thing in common, which is that they have some sort of step right at the beginning. Markdown, for instance, you have to learn the syntax, and then learn something to do with it in most cases (e.g., put it out on your blog). It's fairly easy after that in most ways, but there's that step at the beginnin…

I think this is apt, but another factor is that people don't want to put in up-front effort to learn a tool (rather than make progress on their actual goal) unless they have confidence that the effort will actually be rewarded.

Most people's use of technology is heavily punctuated with inscrutable, unfixable issues. If that's your experience, are you going to want to use a tool that you have to invest time and effort in before actually using it productively for the first time?

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started out as a sysadmin before moving into dev and devs will think you're some sort of wizard just for understanding how file permissions or firewalls or nginx work, it's kind of baffling.

What's funny is I know some amount of owing to me being a JOAT (jack of all trades), so when they run into some issues and I'm able to debug it they wonder why I'm a sysadmin and get paid less than they do. Why ARE sysadmins like me paid less than developers? And I can't get hired as a dev because they see my CV and go, oh you're a sysadmin. I mean, try being a solo sysadmin of over 100+ production Linux servers with…

I've found that most companies treat sysadmins as a cost center while developers were treated as a profit center.

Even when companies specifically state otherwise, it's how they usually behave.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's a fundamental understanding of man-pages that we are just missing. I find myself in the same boat quite often.

man pages started out as a problem. If you don't already know a lot of foundational stuff, it's very difficult to bootstrap yourself with it. There are so many things that say something like "see man fizzlewizzle (3)" or something. I've been a developer for nearly 40 years (mostly in Windows, barely dabbling in linux) and I've yet to figure out what the heck that number means, or how I might predict what the correct…

> I've been a developer for nearly 40 years (mostly in Windows, barely dabbling in linux) and I've yet to figure out what the heck that number means, or how I might predict what the correct number is when I want to look something up myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page#Manual_sections

You usually don't have to care unless you're writing them because it only matters to a user when there are man pages of the same name in multiple sections.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always used Android phones, but my company recently stopped supporting them and told me they have to issue me a new phone - this time an iPhone. And I'm utterly lost. At one time, Apple was said to be the high priests of user experience, with intuitive interactions that would just work the way you expect. This seems to have fallen by the wayside, pushed out by making it more sophisticated I suppose. Because thin…

Yeah, I had to use an iPhone for a while, and found it incredibly frustrating to figure out how to do pretty much anything. Everything I wanted to do involved a whole bunch of blind searching. I don't think it's the iPhone's fault. I think it's because I am used to Android. Both Android and iPhone are very unintuitive and lack discoverability. You learn how to use them with experience.

Oh, I definitely agree with you. It's not that iPhone is worse than Android. It's that both of them have sacrificed discoverability.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#296
The divide between techies and normies isn't clear cut. Some of us are "double agents," observing both worlds from the inside. I've been using the command line since 1982, and am a heavy user of markdown.

"It's simple. Here's a terminal command you can use."

It will return an error message on the first try. After much back-and-forth over chat, I'll come to your cube and see for myself that it returns an error message, then find a few more commands and settings that were needed to make it work. The same commands won't work the next time.

"Just use markdown."

The 80/20 rule looms large. Markdown will produce a readable document, but I won't be able to tell you how to make it conform to an existing aesthetic style, or even know where to look for that information.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#297
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affairs will begin to favor the "programmer" definition of simple with the advancement of conversational models. A chat bot that responds to your prompt with command line flags is going to appear simpler than an answer about advanced physics or math.

Something can be easy while not being simple .

[deleted]

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#298
post #59

As for markdown I showed it to my girlfriend and this is now what she uses for everything. She is a designer and loves that here she does not have to bother with design, just with markup. She hates Microsoft Word with a passion. People who used formatting in any 2000s internet forum know in principle how to use markdown. That aside, I see it as a problem that tech people fail to anticipate the needs of their peers. I…

This isn't a programming problem, or exclusive to our field. Go talk to any expert in their field about something in that field, and have the same reaction. I tried my hand at blacksmithing, and had to learn (what seemed like) a lot of metallurgy before half of what my mentors were saying made any sense at all. Sometimes it's on the expert to make it clear to the non-expert. Other times it's on the newbie to learn th…

It's not exclusive to programming or "tech", but computers are so pervasive while most folks' eyes glaze over at the simplest tasks.

There are lots of folks who don't know how to check their oil or check their tire pressure (or even whether they have a jack and a spare), but in the US we do have a general expectation that folks know how to do those things, so most folks learn.

With computers or "tech", there are almost no expectations that folks should be able to do any maintenance or troubleshooting, so most folks don't learn. This is why "Is it plugged in" has to be the first question.

Software developers don't always make it easier, but our expectations for users are also too low.

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-specialists passively build detailed mental models through experience and associations, and when there's no consistency between implementations, there's no way for that to happen. The reason specialists understand computer usage is because they understand how computers function at a low level, and are trained to expect certain necessary features whether or not there are any indications of those features in the in…

> Non-specialists passively build detailed mental models through experience and associations, and when there's no consistency between implementations, there's no way for that to happen. That implies we're discussing situations where there is no consistency; IME, there is usually consistency but the individual is not _looking for consistency_, so they fail to see it. > The reason specialists understand computer usage…

[deleted]

Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers

#300
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a (few) meta-level(s) for this. They should recognize the value of, and accordingly advocate for, having more "hackable/discoverable/understandable tech environments/contexts". And not necessarily for themselves. The post opens with the classic just brew install blah, and immediately runs into the problem of people not having brew (or some other package manager) preinstalled and ready on their computers. It's…

>People start to see the value of right to repair tractors, people see the value of the first sale doctrine, people see themselves as temporarily embarrased rich gentlefolk, but they are afraid to see themselves as just a few commands away from a power user. The dissonance stems from the fact that most people don't care about power using. Users (most people) don't care for messing with their computers because that's…

I don't think we're talking about tuning or power users -- this is the equivalent of folks who don't know how to check their engine oil or their tire pressure.

Someone doesn't care how their car works _until their car doesn't work_. Or they want to change something relatively minor:

"Hey I just bought these awesome tires. Please put them on the car."

"Well, those are too big for your rims so you'd need new rims. And I'm not sure if your car can handle larger rims..."

"Why are you making this so difficult?"

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