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How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

chriskiehl.com

291–300 of 377 posts

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#291
I don't understand all the comments here fretting about charging-back. It's one of the most effective consumer protective actions we still have in cases like this. I have experience in these matters from both sides of the transactions.

From the business side you get a notice of the chargeback along with the statement the customer provides when they file it. You then have some period of time, a week or two, to respond. Businesses get scammed by charge-backs too, you know. So you have the opportunity to submit your paperwork showing why you are entitled to the funds. A surprising number of the times the business doesn't even bother.

The credit card company looks at what the customer says and what the business says. They may ask either party for clarification or more documentation. They always prefer the vendor and the customer to settle things themselves so they look to see if the customer reached out to the vendor for some help and resolution first. So if you have a problem you really want to do this first. Documenting emails, phone calls, chat-bot transcripts you, as the customer, have with the vendor is extremely useful here. What's also useful are screen shots of a website that doesn't offer any way to contact the vendor and initiate a refund.

They look to see what the vendor did to try to resolve the issue. Then they may look at the actual evidence. And they may have internal data, like a vendor has a lot of other complaints and charge backs for similar reasons. Or that a customer has a lot of charge backs that weren't upheld.

All things being equal the one with the better documentation generally prevails.

My personal experience is some cards are more likely to stick up for their customers. These tend to be the cards that pay high rewards because the customer pays them directly (the annual fee). Some, like USAA, seem to just be more oriented to helping their customers. But this is totally anecdotal.

One thing I've never heard of is anyone getting 'banned' for making a charge back. If someone has personally experienced this, not just heard it happened, please leave a comment.

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#293

Note that the cancellation policy for Hosts is quite generous: https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/990 This lets a host dump you three days before your booking and get away with "only" 25% in fees. AirBnB definitely invests in their inventory (the hosts).

I will never ever use airbnb again In munich I had booked 3 night stay, 2 HOURS!! before i was to turn up the host made an excuse of their dad had died and cancelled the reservation - this was obv nothing to do with the fact they had just realised there was an exhibition on in the area (where rates sky rocket x4) I spoke to the person and they was extremly unconvicing of the real reason of cancelling - luckly I manag…

We had a very similar experience in Paris. Six of us were running in the Paris Marathon, and we'd booked an AirBnB months in advance. Come the week of the marathon, the booking got cancelled by the host without explanation. When we politely enquired as to why our booking had been cancelled and whether there had been some kind of mistake, we got a four word reply: "My husband is DEAD".

If I recall correctly, AirBnB didn't allow the host to rebook the same period once they have cancelled a booking. That was no matter to the host - we later found the same property listed on another platform. AirBnB were unable/unwilling to find us alternative accommodation. And as guests who had been left massively inconvenienced and out-of-pocket, we weren't able to leave a written review or give a low rating to reflect our terrible experience - they simply end up with a brief "auto-review" to say "The host cancelled a booking with X days notice."

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#294
post #6

Charge it back via your bank and explain the situation. Worst case scenario, it gets denied, you don't lose anything either way. The initial misunderstanding was cleared up just one hour after the booking - it should be very reasonable for the host to offer a full refund, it's not like it was a last-minute cancellation where the host would struggle to get it rebooked in time and lose out. The host is clearly being ma…

An important thing to remember is that the chargeback doesn't necessarily absolve you of the legal need to pay. Just because the credit card company claws the money back doesn't mean that a merchant can't come after you in court/debt collection. It's not common, but for a big enough transaction, there's nothing stopping a business from coming after you.

> An important thing to remember is that the chargeback doesn't necessarily absolve you of the legal need to pay.

This is a misconception that many people have - at least in the US market. I owned an MSP for about a decade, and this was often the most common surprise for merchants: charge backs were final and were actually pre-accepted by the merchant as part of their merchant agreement (it's similar in concept to binding arbitration).

If (in the US) you find yourself being collected after a chargeback... have your lawyer get their hands on the merchant agreement. There are some fantastic consumer protections there.

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#295
post #248
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did follow BnB dispute procedure and gave them a chance to overrule the host's unreasonable stance. But BnB conspired with the host to screw him over and should bear the consequences.

Yes, and he should issue a chargeback, and then bear the consequences of AirBnB no longer doing any business with him in response. A chargeback is the burn-all-the-bridges, fuck-you-pay-me nuclear option, and you will be banned from any business that you use it against. You should not use it against any business you intend to patronize in the future.

While a possibility given the weird nature of SV companies, it's also pretty much nonsense in general when company support systems break down. It's the sort of learned helplessness that some people promote relative to companies that seems pretty silly. I've certainly used chargebacks when something wasn't working and continued to deal with said companies, albeit rarely.

Yes, sometimes you need to break relationships with certain companies as well. But that should be fine in general.

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#296
post #248
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did follow BnB dispute procedure and gave them a chance to overrule the host's unreasonable stance. But BnB conspired with the host to screw him over and should bear the consequences.

Yes, and he should issue a chargeback, and then bear the consequences of AirBnB no longer doing any business with him in response. A chargeback is the burn-all-the-bridges, fuck-you-pay-me nuclear option, and you will be banned from any business that you use it against. You should not use it against any business you intend to patronize in the future.

> Yes, and he should issue a chargeback, and then bear the consequences of AirBnB no longer doing any business with him in response.

I struggle to think that a person should bear literally any consequences if they weren't in the wrong, which AIUI in this case he isn't.

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being banned from Best Western, for example, because you disputed a charge! Having a dispute, especially one which is so reasonable like this, being grounds for banning is insane to me. Companies as large as Airbnb cannot be just banning whoever they want. This whole notion of, we don't agree with you, so we'll just ban you thing has got to stop.

Companies want you to file the dispute through their support system using their existing process. Once you file a dispute through the credit card company, the dispute process is moved to the credit card company and now the company has a LOT less power on what might be happening. They also get severely impacted from having a high amount of charge back and hurts them the next time they want to negotiate their credit ca…

> So from a market perspective, it makes total sense for a company to ban you.

From a contract point of view, merchants who ban consumers for charge backs are in violation of card association rules.

> refuse to follow procedure on how to handle the dispute

The merchant agreed to accept charge back rulings when they signed their merchant agreement. The chargeback process is a pain for consumers - they have to do a quite a bit of paperwork to file one.

> Statistically, a customer that uses charge back is a lot likely to end up using it again

A business that forces consumers into charge backs and loses deserves the charge back. Consumers don't automatically win. Source: owned an MSP for about a decade.

BTW, Visa, MC, AMEX and others can fine and ban merchants who fail to comply with card association rules (including chargebacks). Likewise, card associations can also cancel cards on consumers who file abusive charge backs.

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#298
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard of companies reacting to a chargeback in situations like this by banning your account.

Accomplishing such a ban would be hard very to do. I'm taking here as an engineer working with a big company and a big data system. Conceptually the idea you could have a 'blacklist' of numbers you will refuse to serve seems easy enough. In practice it would cost a lot to put such a thing in place. First, how are you going to identify the blacklisters? Can't use credit card numbers. Revoke their membership card? You…

> here are reasons it's hard to have an accurate, effective no-fly list and that list costs a lot to maintain.

There's also the part where the merchant agreed to abide by chargeback rulings and not ban the cardholder.

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#299

This is a scam. We were almost a victim of something similar, but through Expedia. The scam is to induce you to cancel so they can extract a fee. Basically the listing was nonsense, but we didn't notice it immediately. In our case the flat in Paris was both in the 2nd and 14th androssiment, somehow. It was listed in the 2nd but elsewhere it says 14th. Of course we went to cancel but there was a 30% fee. We explained…

Never use an intermediary. Instead of dealing with , you have to deal with Indian call center agents. Hotels.com and booking.com and similar are the absolute worst. I lost maybe 4 hours repeating myself to various people in India just so I could tell the credit card company I tried to resolve the issue for the chargeback. Indian call centers are the worst because it seems like none of them are empowered to actually d…

[deleted]

Re: How to lose $950 quickly on Airbnb

#300
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, Amex denied my chargeback when StubHub was illegally refusing refunds for events canceled due to covid. I don’t think there is any card out there that hasn’t gotten much tougher on chargebacks recently due to both the covid shitshow and the massive increase in chargeback fraud.

chwrgebacks from stubhub/Ticketmaster/etc are hard since they have you basically agree to not charge back and they use that against you. Had to try a chargeback one with them and also got denied because I signed a waiver. Complete nonsense

If that's all it takes to make chargebacks impossible, why doesn't every merchant add that to their 67-page terms and conditions?
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