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How a heat pump works

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Re: How a heat pump works

#291
post #6

Technology Connections has a good video on heat pumps. (Actually several of them, I link the newest one.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEHFsO-XSI

He does, but he omits a lot of important considerations that make heat pumps impractical for normal Americans. If he touches on them, it's briefly - if at all, e.g.: - More expensive units, and more expensive to run power wise. It's always difficult to get adoption of new technology that's "better" but more expensive to buy & repair - to the point where RoI may never happen. - Power grid implications during very low/…

> With a heat pump, you -need- an alternative source of heat

It's only a -need- in certain locations. The one I have claims to be fine down to -5 degrees. There is zero chance we will get anywhere close to that in my lifetime. Heck, even getting down to 32 is incredibly rare. So we are fine without an alternative source of heat.

As for other points, we have never had a power loss/blackout in the nearly 3 decades we have lived here. And electric is cheaper than gas due to nearby hydroelectric dams.

Re: How a heat pump works

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can run in reverse and cool your home, and are much more efficient at that than traditional ACs. I'd love to see a source on that. There is very little technological difference between an air conditioner and a heat pump aside from refrigerant reversing valves that allow changing which end is the condenser and which the evaporator.

I think as a general statement it's true, however the causal reason for that is not because they're heat pumps, it's because of the market for heat pumps is different. If you poll the current installed base for HVAC, I suspect you'd find that the (vast) majority of systems are minimum SEER rated (i.e., least efficient) systems, so SEER 13/14 (just became SEER 14 this year). In comparison, if you're already paying the…

The bigger reason is the japanese market demands efficiency. Buyers compare running costs.

Thus Japan acting as a breeding ground for cheaper, replaceable, mini splits. The American manufacturers sold into the HVAC specialist market which was efficiency insensitive but cost sensitive. Thus a bi-partite market.

The only reason mini splits have not bankrupted the American manufacturers yet is many Americans still rely on expensive HVAC specialist to do installs. Thus mini splits extreme cost advantage is buried by expensive installs.

Re: How a heat pump works

#293

I live in SF Bay Area 20 minutes south of SF and I don’t have and don’t need A/C, so my HVAC needs are met by a gas furnace that is 10-15 years old at this point but it still works. Another caveat is our electricity ranges from 30 to 35 cents per KWh and is probably second to Hawaii in terms of cost. So I do check the cost of operating a Heatpump in the winter and due to high cost of power I am sticking with our gas…

As high as that is, it looks like the price of gas in SF is (relatively) even higher. $4.50 a therm per Google, or $0.15/kWh. A heat pump would only need a COP of 35/15=2.33 to be a better deal (very likely since it will never be that cold in SF, and you get air conditioning for the very few days you might want it).

Re: How a heat pump works

#294
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Better than resistive electric heating for the grid. Gas is going away so this is a problem that has to be solved anyway. - Economies or scale will solve the repair and maintenance burden... hell, it's not like a gas boiler is maintenance free...fucking things requiring serving every year and break down all the time in the UK. - almost noone has a generator when the power goes out anyway. This is a very wealthy Ame…

- Sure, at least when it's not super cold. Electrical grid may be a "problem that has to be solved" but it's one that carries staggering price tags and will have to be gradually transitioned into over decades. Natural gas will likely still be used as a heat source for many well into the late this century if not longer. - Gas boilers are far simpler units. Less moving parts, simpler electronics, all in all fewer point…

> Be that as it may, heat pumps at this time are cost prohibitive.

They range from sub-$1K single zone air-to-air wall/window units, to multizone split units, to ground source hydronic boiler/chillers that integrate with baseboard or radiant floors, which can get quite expensive to install, but that's at the high end. Generally speaking they're not really much more expensive than normal air conditioning. I've seen units that come in cooling-only and heating+cooling versions, and the cost difference is marginal (<10%) in those cases.

Re: How a heat pump works

#295

I live in SF Bay Area 20 minutes south of SF and I don’t have and don’t need A/C, so my HVAC needs are met by a gas furnace that is 10-15 years old at this point but it still works. Another caveat is our electricity ranges from 30 to 35 cents per KWh and is probably second to Hawaii in terms of cost. So I do check the cost of operating a Heatpump in the winter and due to high cost of power I am sticking with our gas…

As the Technology Connections video linked here mentions, "if it’s more expensive to use the option that saves energy... that’s a problem".

Re: How a heat pump works

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inflation reduction act of 2022. https://www.hvac.com/resources/inflation-reduction-act-heat-...

Yep, the Inflation Reduction Act is what I meant. It came into effect this year.

Thanks for the clarification (both of you!).

Re: How a heat pump works

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I just installed two heat pumps in a 3100sf house in the US northeast this summer. We already had ducted AC. The main unit was US$17K and the mini-split for the master bedroom was US$6K. There a US$10K state rebate, but we'll probably only get 70% of that because we've retained the old heating system as a backup and for water, so total cost is US$16K. These are cold-climate units, both rated down to -4°F but I…

I think prices have spiked. Two years ago I installed a new heat pump to replace an old failing 5-ton air conditioner (which was paired with a high efficiency natural gas furnace; I kept the furnace as backup instead of relying on electric strips). It was $6K altogether. Was just going to replace the A/C with a new one, but the differential was $1500 and so I figured why not. OTOH, a few months ago my stepmother inst…

What heat pump did you get? I wanted to get a heat pump, but I ultimately ended up just buying AC. I was told it was not possible to pair with an existing furnace because heat pump control systems were proprietary and incompatible with a standard furnace control.

Re: How a heat pump works

#298
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hasn't been my experience. I can get an AC unit and gas furnace installed for something like 7k. But a heat pump unit that heats and cools is something like 13k installed. I obviously went with the former.

That's fascinating and I believe you were subject to some weird market conditions there. Look at the complexity of gas burners vs a reversing valve and electric heat strips and I think you will see what I mean.

The challenge is there aren't a lot of options for heat pumps in many US markets it seems. There's really only higher end units available, so there's no range in prices.

I priced out a heat pump versus just an AC and gas furnace in my area, and it was a similar spread a few years ago for me in Texas.

Re: How a heat pump works

#299
post #43
post #26

Definitely a lot of posts about heat pumps on HN recently that this topic has piqued my interest but only to the point that I want to know if I can install one in my home. Are there any legit resources out there that can help me understand if heat pump is a right choice for my home based on Geo, type of home, sqft and other factors to consider before replacing current systems (two ACs and two furnaces?)

I guess they are a new thing in the US. In Europe installing a heat pump with floor heating is done for practically every new family house. It is the cheapest (for us) and nicest way to heat up your home. Though very few people build houses out of wood, unlike the US.

What are the houses usually made of? Stone?

Re: How a heat pump works

#300

I live in SF Bay Area 20 minutes south of SF and I don’t have and don’t need A/C, so my HVAC needs are met by a gas furnace that is 10-15 years old at this point but it still works. Another caveat is our electricity ranges from 30 to 35 cents per KWh and is probably second to Hawaii in terms of cost. So I do check the cost of operating a Heatpump in the winter and due to high cost of power I am sticking with our gas…

TL;DR a heat pump isn't worth it in Vancouver, BC, for me anyway.

As a counterpoint to what seems to me like extremely high rates for electricity, as of right now in Vancouver, BC, Canada, I recently calculated that a heat pump would cost about ~2.5-3.5 cents per kWh of heat energy vs ~4.5 cents for gas heating at 80% efficiency. Power on average is about $0.10 USD per kWh here and gas is about $10 USD per GJ.

The average house here uses 74.3 GJ of gas per year, or $ 743 USD of gas. We would save 413 $ per year by switching over.

The neighbours next door spent $ 17000 USD to install a multi-zone heat pump, which still doesn't exactly cover every room. It's a Samsung, so by the general sentiment about their appliances here, we'll assume it doesn't last longer than 15 years and needs to be replaced at a cost of 12000 $ USD down the line.

The hot water, low efficiency 80% boiler has lasted 35 years so far. Total cost of maintenance and repairs has been under $1500 USD. We expect it to last another 30 years easily because there is absolutely nothing special, fragile, or expensive in this system. Most of the spare parts can be found by walking down the alley and seeing which neighbour fell for the "replace your heating system" salesman tactics.

If we replaced it with a "high efficiency" condensing type, we would save at most 20% on our gas bill (143 USD a year). The cost to install will be easily $5000. As a reward for doing so, we will have to pay for maintenance every 5 years at $200, and the device will fail and need to be replaced for another $4000 after 15 years. This is a statistical and practical certainty because condensate is corrosive.

For the next 30 years, the old boiler we have will cost 23790 USD in total.

Upgrading to a high efficiency boiler will cost us $28032 USD in total, not including ANY breakdowns

Using a heat pump will cost $38900 USD in total, not including any maintenance, which you ABSOLUTELY need to do otherwise it smells and grows mould. (we do this maintenance ourselves but the design of the unit is ghastly, I curse the designer out loud every time I think of it, and this is a MAJOR pain to do.)

Based on this math, there is absolutely no reason we would ever consider making any of these changes. A plumber tried to suggest something like this and they seemed to agree.

With this said, I have a heat pump in my room, originally installed because I had too many computers and I needed air conditioning. We bought the absolute cheapest unit we could find at 700 USD and it has been wonderful. It has a capillary tube instead of an EXV because it's cheap, but it works "fine" down to -5 and it rarely goes under that here.

The greatest benefit of a heat pump has nothing to do with energy efficiency or savings. The greatest benefit is that every room can have their own heating and cooling controls that respond FAST. I turn it up and down all the time when I feel like it and it's wonderful.

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